Item Crafting resembles D&D Spellcasting

[Ryan_Singer]

This.  If you don't have Evocation, Thaumaturgy, and The Sight, then you're just a hedge mage.  Possibly a powerful one, but not a true Wizard.
Oh, and you need Soulgaze to be considered a wizard.  Per WoJ:

This character has everything but evocation. In place of evocation, he has a very high lore, and enchanted combat items. There is literally nothing a Wizard can do that this character can't do with a 9-shift clever potion. I think our compromise for this character, that he is a wizard, but it's not respected by all wizards, is about right.

[Becq]

You mean other than saying "screw the stress and backlash, I'm going for 10 shifts"? 

And saying that there's literally nothing a Wizard can do that this character can't is just not true.  Try this:

Three practice targets, A, B, and C, are lined up in a row.  You have 10 seconds to accomplish each task.
1. Cast a spell to gently light this candle on fire.
2. Cast a firebolt, bruning a hole through practice target A.
3. Cast a cone of fire, burning practice targets B and C.
4. Cast a spell to extinguish the candle with a gust of air without knocking it over.
5. Cast a spell to knock over the remains of practice target B without knocking over A and C.
6. Cast a spell to knock over the remains of practice targets A and C.

Dresden could do this, the sample Artificer could not (since it requires six different capabilities and is time-limited), even if you assumed that a potion could be created to duplicate these affects, which I'm not sure about.

Or try this: you are stripped of all possession and left otherwise unharmed in a room.  Cast a spell of your choice within the next 10 seconds.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the concept is bad, or that it's under- or over-powered, or that it wouldn't be fun to play.  But it is, as the aspect suggests, only "Sorta a Wizard", not truly one by White Council standards.  To be a true Wizard you need to be capable of both Evocation and Thaumaturgy.  (Though not only that.)

[Ryan_Singer]

You mean other than saying "screw the stress and backlash, I'm going for 10 shifts"? 

Actually, he can get 11 shifts on potions with a fate point.

And saying that there's literally nothing a Wizard can do that this character can't is just not true.  Try this:

Three practice targets, A, B, and C, are lined up in a row.  You have 10 seconds to accomplish each task.
1. Cast a spell to gently light this candle on fire.
2. Cast a firebolt, bruning a hole through practice target A.
3. Cast a cone of fire, burning practice targets B and C.
4. Cast a spell to extinguish the candle with a gust of air without knocking it over.
5. Cast a spell to knock over the remains of practice target B without knocking over A and C.
6. Cast a spell to knock over the remains of practice targets A and C.

Assuming a potion can duplicate these effects:

1. One round maneuver thaumaturgy. There is no way this is more than 5 shifts.
2 and 3. Potion duplicates fire spell that can split shifts between targets. Each potion has 3 uses.
4. See #1.
5 and 6. 2nd potion, just like 2 and 3, but force instead of fire.

Dresden could do this, the sample Artificer could not (since it requires six different capabilities and is time-limited), even if you assumed that a potion could be created to duplicate these affects, which I'm not sure about.

Dresden now has 4-6 shifts of mental stress, depending on whether the GM lets the candle stuff be free. Merrix has no mental stress, and isn't even down half his potions.

Or try this: you are stripped of all possession and left otherwise unharmed in a room.  Cast a spell of your choice within the next 10 seconds.

High Lore + Thaumaturgy.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the concept is bad, or that it's under- or over-powered, or that it wouldn't be fun to play.  But it is, as the aspect suggests, only "Sorta a Wizard", not truly one by White Council standards.  To be a true Wizard you need to be capable of both Evocation and Thaumaturgy.  (Though not only that.)

I agree with you that it's debatable whether or not the white council would let this character in, but if the tests you pose are the entry quals, he passes easier than Dresden does.

[Belial666]

You are forgetting a few things;


1) While you may have 16 uses for your potions (4 each), you only have 4 different potions per session. That's it. 4 different effects in however many scenes can be played out per session. On the other hand, the evocation-wizard has 4 different effects per scene with his evocation. That's an order of magnitude more flexibility than you.
2) Regardless of what you do, enchanted item strength (potions included) is limited to twice your Lore, period. That's 10, 9 for you if you don't augment with declarations. A wizard's basic strength at this level can be 8 shifts for his spells but that's only his minimum. He can go up to 11 without any consequences. If required, he could go up to 15 with mild consequences.
3) Your attacks are based off discipline. That's a +4 attack. Against a ghoul, you have 50% chance of hitting and in an average roll you do 9 stress. A wizard's attack is his control roll, which is about +8, maybe +9 at this refresh. He hits 98% of the time and in an average roll he deals 13 stress. He is nearly 3 times more effective in every attack than you are.

So, with that in mind, here is a scenario;

Scene 1: Graveyard at midnight
The group (wizard, artificer, mortal investigator/scholar, white court socialite) has tracked down an evil cult in the general area and must stop a bad ritual from happening. The investigator begins tracking down the cults movements but soon the group is surrounded by a thick, vision-blocking unnatural mist.
Challenge 1: 12-shift thaumaturgy veil that makes it impossible to move on. The group is pressed for time. The graveyard is a place of much death and horrible emotions - using the sight will trigger +5 backlash each exchange.
Assuming the group manages to pierce the veil or otherwise go forth, the investigator leads you on until two vaguely humanoid lumps of earth rise to block the path.
Challenge 2: 2 golems. Supernatural Strength and Toughness, +5 fists, defend with endurance of +5 vs physical and mental attacks/maneuers. The investigator has effective lore of 7 due to various occultist stunts so quickly recognizes their weakness as crushing attacks.
Assuming the group manages to overcome the golems, the way opens up to a crypt defended by
Challenge 3: over a dozen thugs in covered positions on it. The graves in the ground prevent sprinting. The White Court socialite manages to convince several of them to leave without a fight (social combat) but 8 of them still remain on the crypt, 3 zones away.
Assuming the group gets rid of the mortal thugs, the trail leads to the crypt where there are energies gathering inside. Soon enough the big dark ritual migh be complete. But...

Scene 2: The Crypt
Challenge 1: The crypt is protected by a fairly powerful ward of 13 shifts. The group has only a few minutes to get in there and interrupt the ritual; they can either do something fast with the ward and use the rest of the time to catch their breath (healing stress) or they could attempt to do a big enough but slow group thaumaturgy to unravel the ward.
Assuming the group bypasses the ward, they are
Challenge 2: immediately attacked by 3 specters that appear in the same zone coming out of the floor. Supernatural Toughness, inhuman speed poltergeists with a touch that rips apart living things (claws), athletics 5+1 fists 3, endurance 3. They are weak to lightning and spirit attacks.
Big Fight: inside the crypt there are two toad demons summoned by 11-shift spells, an 11-shift ward and inside the ward there is a male and a female warlock working on their ritual. They still need 10 exchanges to finish it and summon the big demon. There is a minor leyline below the crypt - cutting off power with a magic circle is impossible.



Can you think of any combination of potions that the artificer could use to be more effective than the wizard here? Assume he does not know what he faces in advance but that he could declare his potions or keep them for later use; let's say that entering the graveyard is the beginning of the session.

[Sanctaphrax]

Ignoring the issue of the respective power of the artificier and wizard builds, I would like to say that that is a pretty cool scenario. Pretty tough on the players, but still cool.

[Ryan_Singer]

You are forgetting a few things;

This was a very informative and useful post for getting a grasp on the real issues. Thank you very much.

1) While you may have 16 uses for your potions (4 each), you only have 4 different potions per session. That's it. 4 different effects in however many scenes can be played out per session. On the other hand, the evocation-wizard has 4 different effects per scene with his evocation. That's an order of magnitude more flexibility than you.

Yes. Although, Evocation is more limited in it's range of effects than the potions are.

2) Regardless of what you do, enchanted item strength (potions included) is limited to twice your Lore, period. That's 10, 9 for you if you don't augment with declarations. A wizard's basic strength at this level can be 8 shifts for his spells but that's only his minimum. He can go up to 11 without any consequences. If required, he could go up to 15 with mild consequences.

I forgot about that when typing the sentence you're referring to. You're right, of course. The limit for the potions is 10 shifts. It might be reasonable to get the GM to say invoking aspects can surpass that limit, but that's a GM's call, and the rules don't say you can. Again, of course, the point about evocation vs. potions. Yes, the wizard can get more shifts, but he can only do evocation-like stuff.

3) Your attacks are based off discipline. That's a +4 attack. Against a ghoul, you have 50% chance of hitting and in an average roll you do 9 stress. A wizard's attack is his control roll, which is about +8, maybe +9 at this refresh. He hits 98% of the time and in an average roll he deals 13 stress. He is nearly 3 times more effective in every attack than you are.

This is a very good point. I'm not quite sure how to address this. Is there a way you can suggest to modify this build to have better attacks, or do you think it's fated to be much less effective than evocation? It is worth noting that the Artificer has 3 free attacks per session before spending mental stress, but it still doesn't make up for the problem you are pointing out.

Scene 1: Graveyard at midnight
The group (wizard, artificer, mortal investigator/scholar, white court socialite) has tracked down an evil cult in the general area and must stop a bad ritual from happening. The investigator begins tracking down the cults movements but soon the group is surrounded by a thick, vision-blocking unnatural mist.
Challenge 1: 12-shift thaumaturgy veil that makes it impossible to move on. The group is pressed for time. The graveyard is a place of much death and horrible emotions - using the sight will trigger +5 backlash each exchange.
Assuming the group manages to pierce the veil or otherwise go forth, the investigator leads you on until two vaguely humanoid lumps of earth rise to block the path.
Challenge 2: 2 golems. Supernatural Strength and Toughness, +5 fists, defend with endurance of +5 vs physical and mental attacks/maneuers. The investigator has effective lore of 7 due to various occultist stunts so quickly recognizes their weakness as crushing attacks.
Assuming the group manages to overcome the golems, the way opens up to a crypt defended by
Challenge 3: over a dozen thugs in covered positions on it. The graves in the ground prevent sprinting. The White Court socialite manages to convince several of them to leave without a fight (social combat) but 8 of them still remain on the crypt, 3 zones away.
Assuming the group gets rid of the mortal thugs, the trail leads to the crypt where there are energies gathering inside. Soon enough the big dark ritual migh be complete. But...

Wow. You have a gift for DFRPG encounter design. This is much cooler and tougher than anything I've thrown at my players. For the first challenge, the Artificer is best off assisting the Wizard. He declares (using Lore) one of his potions to be a "Magical Supercharger"; giving sticky, two free tags "magically supercharged" aspect to the drinker. He lets the Wizard drink one dose, and notes on his sheet what the potion does and his remaining doses. One nice thing about the artificer is that his thaumaturgy potions allow him to play well with others.

The second challenge is easier, as his right ring does force attacks, which could easily be described as crushing. If he needs help hitting the bad guy, he can drink one of the potions he declared in the last challenge. It's worth noting that his protective item works well in protecting him here, as these golems aren't going to beat it's Block strength of 9. Here the Artificer would do as well as the wizard, at least, if it wasn't for the low attack roll problem you already pointed out. Any suggestions for improvement, there?

A quick Thaumaturgy veil over the group makes short work of challenge #3, without spending any resources. Of course, a very high lore wizard has the same option.

Scene 2: The Crypt
Challenge 1: The crypt is protected by a fairly powerful ward of 13 shifts. The group has only a few minutes to get in there and interrupt the ritual; they can either do something fast with the ward and use the rest of the time to catch their breath (healing stress) or they could attempt to do a big enough but slow group thaumaturgy to unravel the ward.
Assuming the group bypasses the ward, they are
Challenge 2: immediately attacked by 3 specters that appear in the same zone coming out of the floor. Supernatural Toughness, inhuman speed poltergeists with a touch that rips apart living things (claws), athletics 5+1 fists 3, endurance 3. They are weak to lightning and spirit attacks.
Big Fight: inside the crypt there are two toad demons summoned by 11-shift spells, an 11-shift ward and inside the ward there is a male and a female warlock working on their ritual. They still need 10 exchanges to finish it and summon the big demon. There is a minor leyline below the crypt - cutting off power with a magic circle is impossible.

Challenge 1 is another situation where the Artificer and the Wizard benefit from Synergy, especially considering the left over supercharging potions. Either method of taking down this ward involves the Wizard and Artificer working together to avoid consequences.

Challenge 2 is  like the golem fight. The right ring uses force attacks, which are spirit.

Big fight is interesting. This is, of course, the scene where you beg your GM to let aspects add the full +2 to your potions, but we'll assume he says no. The Toad demons are pretty scary, but my high lore check done as a free action tells me they are very weak against mental attacks. Being non-human, it's not lawbreaking to use a psychic attack potion on them. Down they go, just as easy as the Wizard's 11 shift counterspell, if not easier. Taking down an 11-shift ward in combat time is something beyond this build, which frankly sucks. Luckily, this build still has a use left of the potion to help the wizard do it. Your examples have convinced me that counter-spelling is a major weakness of this build. Any suggestions there?

Disrupting the ritual once the ward is down is easy with his remaining potions, or his force-blast ring. Fallout from disrupting the ritual may get harsh.

[Belial666]

There are reasons enchanted items are, generally speaking, secondary to Evocation. Here follow all the big problems I could find for you. I am not saying they don't have advantages (they do - no mental stress is a huge one) but the main reason wizards would not rely on them is just that; low reliability. There are simply lots of ways enchanted items can be disabled or rendered useless in a situation whereas Evocation is always useful, even in social/mental conflict or situations you cannot prepare for.



1) Yes, I decided to display the one thing artificers cannot do at all. Not only counterspells for the higher-end spells are beyond them simply because a wizard can reach for more shifts but they can't do the little ones either. To counter a spell, you need exactly the spell's shifts in your counterspell. Less, and the counter fails. More, and the extra shifts go to Fallout or Backlash. So, if you meet a low-power spell and declare your potion is at its power, when you next meet a medium power spell, you cannot dispel it. If you declare your counter at max power, you are taking collateral damage (fallout or backlash) for any spell weaker than 9 shifts, still can't counter the max-shift wizard spells and can only safely counter if the spell is exactly at your potion's strength. This problem cannot be solved.

2) Low attack rolls are not the only thing potion and item attacks have to deal with. You say you use a mental attack on the Toad Demons. How? A potion has to be imbibed or otherwise contact the target. Even if you go the way of Harry's sunlight hanky, it is still something that must be aimed (enchanted items must be aimed if they are attacks)... meaning basic defense is dodge. So you can't take advantage of the weaker mental defense even if the attack ends up dealing mental stress.
As for the spirits, they got a defense of +6 vs your ring. They will dodge at least 3 times out of 4. And even if you hit, 9 stress might not be enough to kill them outright even overcoming toughness powers if they got up to moderate consequence. They might be on the ropes but they'll need a second hit.
The low attack problem cannot be fully solved either. You could have a discipline of +5 to match your Lore but that's it. You might convince your GM to allow you a stunt for +1 attacks for a specific type of items. I.e. "Lord of the Rings" for +1 to magic ring rolls if you got lots or "Master Alchemist" for +1 to potions. But generally speaking, stunts should not affect magic - you can justify this as your experience in aiming your enchanted items, not boosting their actual power. Not sure if the GM would allow it though.

3) Another problem is thresholds of any sort. A threshold of Fair (+2) such as a shallow river or stream, rain, or an average home may not seem like much and indeed, for a wizard it isn't. His power drops from 8 to 6 and his control form 8 or 9 to 6 or 7. Similarly, your power drops from 9 to 7. But your attack roll drops form +4 to +2, halved. Against a good family home or something even faintly warded or a magically adverse condition and a threshold of Great (+4), your enchanted items do not work at all. The wizard is still going to have power 4, control +5. Sure, he lost half his power. But he is still stonger than the average mortal while enchanted items are useless except in defense.

4) Something that I did not adress at all is blocks and counters. Someone throwing a 5-6 shift offensive block on you is going to stop you from using your enchanted items cause you roll at +4. A wizard with his +8 to +9 control is going to shatter the block easily. But even worse is a counterspell. Enchanted items won't be affected because they aren't active unless you use them. Potions though are stored thaumaturgies. A 9-shift counterspell and your potion goes poof. A 9-shift area counterspell (which a wizard can pull off with some difficulty), is going to dispel the defensive talisman you just activated, the supercharging potion you have imbibed and all your potions. And still get rid of any buffs you've put in others in the group that are in the same zone...


5) Another thing I did not adress; flexibility. You might have noticed this example session was a bit tough. Not serious-consequence tough but not just stress either. But it only had 2 scenes. If I had made the challenges just a bit easier but more numerous and varied over more scenes, you'd have run out of potions. And the golems and wraiths being succeptible to your rings was a freebie. What if they were other types of creatures with other catches? Or if there was one golem and only 2 ghosts but there was a fae in another scene that was mildly resistant to magic? Now consider another scene where social/mental combat was needed and another where capturing the target was needed instead of blasting him and you'd have even more problems.
With 4-5 scenes instead of 2, requiring maneuers, quick veils, blocks, offensive blocks both physical and mental/social in addition to the purely combat counterspells and attacks, you couldn't possibly have enough items to cover them. You'd have 4 potions and we mentioned more than 8 things to do.

[sinker]

Firstly an artificer can boost the power of his items past his lore:

Unlike a normal enchanted item, the effect
strength of the potion may be boosted on the fly
or at the time it is created with the invocation
of aspects. Each invocation allows the potion’s
strength to be increased by 2.

YS280

Secondly I would wonder if thresholds would even effect enchanted items at all. The rules state that thresholds effect powers and spells, however it never specifically addresses enchanted items and if the novels are any indication thresholds have no effect.

(click to show/hide)

Bob throws Harry a potion through a threshold (his magic circle is technically a kind of threshold) in the first book.

Finally Ryan, you answered an example of using a potion to attack targets with force. This is one of the few things that I have a hard time allowing the artificer. How do you direct that force? You can't direct it as it has no connection to you. It has no personal sense of direction or ability to differentiate between targets. The best I would think you could do is have a potion that released that force in an omni-directional burst which would work but might be interesting if you had any allies nearby.

[Belial666]

Yes, the strength of the potions can be boosted on the fly. But nowhere does it say that the potion's strength can overcome the limit of twice the artificer's lore that all enchanted items face.

Secondly, enchanted items -potions included- are described as "stored spells". If something affects spells then it will affect the enchanted items. Yes, you can throw a potion through a circle - because it is also a physical object. But you cannot imbibe a potion and then cross a threshold and expect its effect not to weaken. Harry's escape potion for example would not work through thresholds at all for that exact reason.

Last, his artificer also has an enchanted ring, much like Harry's ring. That's what he uses for force attacks.

[sinker]

Actually Harry's escape potion specifically did work through a threshold. That's specifically what it was used for in the novel...

And yes, the force ring is directed force but earlier when you brought up the examples of having several targets and needing to light them on fire, then blow them over he responded with a use of potions.

1. One round maneuver thaumaturgy. There is no way this is more than 5 shifts.
2 and 3. Potion duplicates fire spell that can split shifts between targets. Each potion has 3 uses.
4. See #1.
5 and 6. 2nd potion, just like 2 and 3, but force instead of fire.

[babel2uk]

Actually Harry's escape potion specifically did work through a threshold. That's specifically what it was used for in the novel...

Wasn't that just his Threshold (which is extremely feeble) and maybe his own Wards (if they were still up at that point) - which would let him through in any case? NB I'm not saying it couldn't go through thresholds, just that the use in Storm Front is a bad example.

[MijRai]

You can't use Harry's escape potion as an example, because it was his home. Bob threw the potion through a circle, sure, but while a circle may operate as a threshold, it isn't really one.

[Kaldra]

going back to the topic of this post, Yes an artificer does resembel a dnd spell caster.

[Drashna]

Only sort of.

And Belial666, thanks for demonstating what I meant.  Versatility. The "artificer" build may not be able to hit as well, but they can make that up in the number of attempts they get. And in the staying power they have.  It's a good flavor build, but you do indeed give up a lot to do it. 

(oh, and awesome scenario. Mind if I borrow it?)

[Nyarlathotep5150]

Actually Harry's escape potion specifically did work through a threshold. That's specifically what it was used for in the novel...

This isn't really an example of anything. Bob threw the potion (at the time an entirely physical object) through the circle. Harry then drank it. The magical effect was released entirely within the circle.
   Harry then used the spell to become the wind and pass through his circle and the threshold of his apartment... BOTH of which where HIS thresholds. Your own thresholds don't block your powers because you're automatically assumed to be invited in to your own home and magical defenses.


   As far as the Artificer idea, I think its awesome. It sounds fun. Its neither over nor underpowered. As has been stated, all you're really doing is trading off versatility for dependability.
   I don't see how its "Not in keeping with the theme of the game", as crafting was a big part of the books and it stands to reason that some casters (former Lucio anyone) specialize in it... That being said, the books DO mention many times how time consuming it is to craft items, and how you frequently have to recast the spells on permanent items to keep them working. So, in my games, in the name of keeping true to the books, if one wanted to play a crafting specialist, he should expect to spend any and all off camera time in his lab, tinkering to keep all those gadgets working (and maybe taking Compels/penalties if he does otherwise).