Item Crafting resembles D&D Spellcasting

[Ryan_Singer]

It seems to me that a decent Item Crafter doesn't need evocation to be a pretty badass spellslinger.

Say we have a guy with no other powers but Ritualist (Crafter) and Refinementx2.
Lore: Superb
Discipline: Great
Conviction: Great

6 Focus Item Slots (2 from Ritual, 4 from Refinement)
=
Focus Item (4 slots) Belt of enchanting- +2 to crafting power and frequency
Enchanted item 1 -Staff of Power- Weapon:7 Ranged Force Attack, aim with Discipline. No Backlash or fallout - 3 uses/session for free, then 1 mental stress per use.
Enchanted item 2 -Robe of Armor- Block 7 or Armor:3, as a free reaction - 3 uses/session for free, then 1 mental stress per use.
4 Potion slots, each potion is effect worth 7 shifts - 3 uses per session per potion. Get to Declare new potions every session, and can declare in scene with a fate point or lore roll


This isn't a bad suite of combat powers, and only for 3 refresh.
4 Potion slots means 4 vancian-style choose per session spells, able to cast each 3x per session. The potions can even be designed on the fly maneuvers, or even <=7 shift thaumaturgy effects, also this can be improved to 9 shifts by invoking or taking a compel debt.
The two enchanted items, OTOH, function as evocation rotes with 3 free castings per session. The block is even reflexive, ala Harry's duster.

This comes down to a caster that is capable of fast, cheap rituals, and is a match for a starting wizard as an evocator.

The rest of the refresh can be spent on stunts, or used for FATE Points to invoke more powerful Potions.

[Tbora]

Your you can spend on refinements for crafting or item amount.

[MijRai]

Well, it may have the strength, but not the flexibility. No manuevers, no increasing power with a good roll, etc.

Also, if I ran a game, I wouldn't allow something like that. I think that is just taking advantage of the rules, and isn't a part of the spirit of the game. I wouldn't let the wizard or sorcerer be outclassed by somebody who takes advantage of how well enchanted items can work.

[Ryan_Singer]

Refinement for Ritualist is only for more focus item slots.

[Ryan_Singer]

Well, it may have the strength, but not the flexibility. No manuevers, no increasing power with a good roll, etc.

It doesn't have all of the flexibility, but it has a lot of it. Each potion can be a different maneuver, and they can be thaumaturgy or evocation maneuvers.

Where you lose the most flexibility is in the ability to do high powered rituals. This example servers equally, though, to demonstrate why evocation may not be worth the refresh as long as you have thaumaturgy, keep Lore up and specialize in crafting.

[Drashna]

I wouldn't allow the "one mental stress after session uses for more effect".  That's not in the rules and no item has a similar effect.  Basically, he's cheating you out of having to take evocation. Tell him that he can't take mental stress to add additional usages to the item. Once they've spent, they're spent. Period. They have to recharge or he has to pick up channeling/evocation. 

(no offense to any, but i'm surprised that nobody picked up on that)
I'd also say that while he can craft potions more "frequently", that they aren't multiple uses per slot. The book states that one potion = 1 slot, and that potions can *only* be used once. Period. (YS280 and implied again on OS226) It means that he can have a huge stash of them at home, or the like.

No offense, but it sounds like this player is taking advantage of your unfamiliarity of the rules and breaking the system.  Honestly, it shouldn't be a chore of figuring out how to "unbreak" the player. Sit down and talk with him.  If he's becoming a problem, he's taking the fun out of it. Drop him, or give him an ultimatum.  Personally, I'd tell him if it happens again, tell him the Blackstaff/Red King/Lord Raith/TBBG will be paying a visit and not a friendly one, or that everyone will start getting free tags on him till he corrects things + a scene or two afterwards. 

[Becq]

I wouldn't allow the "one mental stress after session uses for more effect".  That's not in the rules and no item has a similar effect.

 

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,17041.msg774028.html#msg774028

I'd also say that while he can craft potions more "frequently", that they aren't multiple uses per slot. The book states that one potion = 1 slot, and that potions can *only* be used once. Period. (YS280 and implied again on OS226) It means that he can have a huge stash of them at home, or the like.

Regarding the frequency option for Crafting specialization: "In the case of potions, this can create stronger potions, or ones that you can get two uses out of."  (YS280)

I agree with the point you're trying to make, but the example is allowed by the rules, strictly speaking.  Your point remains that the GM should consider game balance when approving characters.

[Kaldra]

I wouldn't allow the "one mental stress after session uses for more effect".  That's not in the rules and no item has a similar effect.

and going to your given page YS page 280 "If an enchanted item runs out of uses in a session, if wielded by a practitioner, he may make additional uses anyway by taking one point of mental stress per use."

all this build does is give a much more stable character, they are a known quantity who performance will never fluctuate. this mind set is pretty common, i my self would much prefer the consistent result to the one that will likely work when i need it to. its a character choice. this idea wouldnt fit every character but it is an idea for A character, so props to him. but is he:

taking advantage of your unfamiliarity of the rules and breaking the system.

no i do not think he is. and if he becomes a problem talk to him about it but threatening him with character death seems a bit much especially if you carry through with it, speaking as a long time role-player character death sucks and doubly so in a game where you really have to put a bit of work into them and who they are.

[Kaldra]

blast beaten while searching for the potions bit

[Ryan_Singer]

I'm not sure I understand where all the hostility is coming from. Everything this character does is specifically mentioned in the rules. I posted to point out that a high Lore spellcaster doesn't really need evocation, under the current rules.

I'm not saying this is a good thing or a bad thing, only that it seems true.

[Tbora]

I built an Artificer (item crafter) character who duke out with the best evocators, and its totally rules compliant.

I really don't see why people seem to think such a character is "against the spirit of the game"

[sinker]

I think one of the things that most people don't get about magic is that it's the why. Anyone can make things explode for example. A mortal needs to give a reason like explosives. A wizard says "it's magic".
The major difference between a crafter and a full wizard is that the crafter is going to need a little more than just "it's magic". Not remotely as much as a mortal might but they're still going to have to come up with how their potions manipulate forces to do what they do.

[toturi]

I built an Artificer (item crafter) character who duke out with the best evocators, and its totally rules compliant.

I really don't see why people seem to think such a character is "against the spirit of the game"

I don't really see why as well. The only thing "against the spirit of the game" is that there is a lack of a specific example of such a character in the Dresdenverse. But bearing in mind that afterall Harry specifically tells Billy not to "make these guys (focused practioners) sound like they’re featherweights", I do not see why such a character should not be allowed.

[babel2uk]

As far as I can tell from the rules, it's a little less flexible than it appears, but is quite acceptable - indeed one of my players is effectively playing a Crafter, and it's absolutely within the spirit of a Focused Practitioner type. But I'd disagree that a Crafter would be a bad-ass Spell Slinger when compared to someone with both Evocation and Thaumaturgy - after all they will have an almost identical set of High skills to the Crafter (Discipline, Conviction and Lore), so will be able to perform exactly the same potion-style abilities, and then keep going using their Evocation.

Balance-wise:

If you use slots for Enchanted Items then they have the same effect every time. And while you can change them pretty much when you want, the process for creating an Enchanted Item is described as similar to that of creating a Focus - which takes months. So there's no chopping and changing from session to session with enchanted items.

For Potions, yes you can leave the slots open and simply spend a fate point, or make a Lore roll to have the appropriate one. But potions have 1 use only, unless you're spending slots to get extra doses of the same type of potion. The effect strength is also limited to your Lore, unless you spend multiple item slots or invoke aspects. So basically you've got a fairly flexible degree of spell effects, but for a very limited number of uses. Someone with Evocation, even a beginning character can equal or beat that - and with the bonus that if they are captured they can't be simply stripped of their ability. As a further point against the Crafter, there must legitimately have been time for them to have created the potion earlier - where Evocation needs no such justification.

[luminos]

There are some break-points where the potion crafter is way too powerful.  It wouldn't be difficult to craft a defensive item that can do a 10 shift block for around 5-6 uses per session, which would make it pointless to attack the character.  He can use mental stress to get extra uses, and mental stress replenishes every scene, so as long as he keeps it to 2-3 uses per fight, he'll never get hit and probably never run out of uses.  At that point in the build, the crafter can easily get one item for attacking, and several potions for utility, and he's a god in combat.  My solution is to shortcut this power build by outlawing focused crafters outright, but if you are comfortable with vetoing the character after its been made more power to you.  I cringe to think what would happen if you actually let such a crafter into a game.  

Edit:  Also, a focused crafter does not need discipline (you can aim items with any appropriate skill) or conviction.  He has a one-up over all other magic users in that regard, which for me is sufficient reason to be suspicious of it.