Item Crafting resembles D&D Spellcasting

[babel2uk]

Anyone with Thaumaturgy and Evocation could craft exactly the same defensive item. So if you're banning the Crafter, you may as well ban anyone from having Thaumaturgy, full stop. And you could burn through that defensive item in a single combat. If they're a potion crafter then their defensive items are potions - which are one use anyway, every extra dose takes up an item slot. And if their a potion crafter then arguably they can't make an enchanted item other than a potion.

As far as not requiring Discipline goes if they ever want to create another enchanted item (including potions) they'll need to have it. Thaumaturgy requires Discipline rolls to control the power you're putting into the spell. Fine, create a Crafter with Discipline of Mediocre, but don't expect them to be making potions or enchanted items particularly quickly, or at all during game time (without taking a massive risk).

The effectiveness of enchanted items is limited to the Caster's Lore (unless they spend extra slots) though Foci can mitigate this somewhat (but not to the extent of making it 'easy' to craft a 10 shift defensive block), without drastically reducing the amount of uses you get. The mental stress for uses 'patch' is pretty much invalid. It predates the publication of the rulebook, so arguably the rulebook takes precedence - the playtest of this patch probably showed just how open to abuse it is.

[Ala Alba]

IMO, there are three main balancing factors to a Crafter vs an Evocator.

1. Crafters receive no bonus to hit their target. It's trivially easy to make an Evocator that gets a base of 10 or more to hit their targets AND control their evocation.

2. Crafters are limited in power to twice their Lore ability. Again, Evocators have no such limitation. They can even pump up their base power by 3 without any real drawback(provided they can control it).

3. Crafters refresh their abilities by session, but Evocators can get a full or partial refresh every scene(depending on whether they took any consequences or not). Depending on many scenes your typical session contains, an Evocator can easily surpass the Crafter in terms of "fuel".

Edit:

The mental stress for uses 'patch' is pretty much invalid. It predates the publication of the rulebook, so arguably the rulebook takes precedence - the playtest of this patch probably showed just how open to abuse it is.

Page 280 of Your Story: Read it.

[babel2uk]

My apologies, yes the stress rule is tucked away in the text - it really should have something to highlight it a little better, it's quite an important rule. However, as I read it potions don't get the stress spend option anyway.

[JustinS]

And loosing out on other tactical options is not a small thing.

An attack spell is good, but if you can pull it off, a zone area spell is better. Blocks and maneuvers give you more options, especially if you start tagging for effect. Not to mention that powerful enchanted items are bulky and can be removed.

An enchanter can be more powerful, and is more focused.

[sinker]

Of note babel you can create potions that have more than one use Via Foci (Ryan's got it in his character concept). Check the crafting specializations section (also on page YS280).
Rules wise I believe you have created a pretty powerful and perfectly legal character.

[babel2uk]

Of note babel you can create potions that have more than one use Via Foci (Ryan's got it in his character concept). Check the crafting specializations section (also on page YS280).

Edit: Sorry, having re-read through the crafting rules I concede I'm wrong.

[Ryan_Singer]

I have, but I really don't think the frequency applies to potions - it doesn't make sense, you can't drink a potion twice. The Potions section clearly states that potions can be used once, period, and 1 potion = 1 slot. You have to spend extra item slots to get more potions. You're giving up the ability to have multiple uses from the same item, in exchange for being able to boost it on the fly (which you can't do with other enchanted items), plus you don't have to pay the extra cost for it to be useable by someone else and you can declare you have a given potion at any time.

From the text on YS280:

In the case of potions, this can create stronger
potions, or ones that you can get two uses out
of.

In other words, you might think it's too powerful, but it's clearly RAW and ROI.

[babel2uk]

Apparently you posted while I was editing my previous response. RAW I understand. What's ROI?

[Drashna]

One of the biggest issues I've been having with DFRPG is that a lot of the important text is tucked away and easy to miss. The item crafting stuff proves this more than anything. Until just recently, I've found it rather annoying. Then I released: how is this not in the theme of Dresden Files in general. Very much fitting.

As for game breaking... I've been digging further and further into items and related stuff, thinking about this hardcore.  One thing it does mention is an item with power double your lore should have good explanation.

Regardless, an item’s casting strength after all bonuses are totaled should never exceed two times the crafter’s Lore rating—at least not without a very good rationale and a ton of baggage."

 
Also, there is the issue of recharge (or why it can be used multiple times). I mean the kinetic rings and duster harry has both have good explanations.

After it’s used, the item requires time to recharge by some means that you determine; this is assumed to take long enough to reach into the next session

Also, I can think of an easy solution to wearing down an item.
* A prolonged evocation would do it to armor/blocks. One exchange to pump the area with damage, the next to sustain it for more rounds.
* Tag teaming. A bunch of baddies will wear that armor out really fast. Same with offensive weapons.
* Maneuvers, depending on the items. Okay, you've got armor... but you're pinned on the ground. Let my henchies strip you good.
* Not to mention, if you only have rituals (crafting), it means you lack things like veiling, warding, summoning, and other such things. While some of these can be "emulated", warding and summoning are two things that probably should never be emulated by potions/items. Which brings me to my next point:
* Crafting requires an arcane laboratory. And without proper wards/veils/etc, that lab can be very vulnerable.  This is a very nasty thing to do as a GM, which leads me to my next point:
* Change it up.  Crafting can create just as powerful effects as evocation/channeling/thaumaturgy. But it requires planning, and very much lacks flexibility.
Again, these are things that are more intended to get back at that player. Ryan, it sounds like your wizard is much more of a physical combat wizard. So? Through him into situations that are social.  You come in in full combat gear... you are asking for trouble.  I mean, seriously. Look at Harry.  Are you going to walk into Accorded Neutral Grounds armed to the teeth, itching for a fight?  I can think of what a couple of red/white court vamps would try. To provoke you. Or manipulate you into starting a war, or at least picking on a bad guy bigger than you can handle.  Or the like.  

That staff of power, it can only do the same thing over and over and over. You can't change it to suddenly make it into an area of effect spell the way you can with evocation.  Nor could you change it to a maneuver to disable or apply temp aspects.  Heck, you can't even create light without a potion.  

But personally, I don't see a problem with allowing it. Yes, you lock yourself down to what you do but maybe you're a wizard that believes that all his power *must* be channeled through objects.  And it really *should* be part of the characters high concept (or so *I* believe),  which means things like destroying his lab, or removing his items should be considered compels. Again, at least that's what I think.  I'm sure people will disagree with me.

As for potions... Yeah. Seriously. Serious contradictions.  I believe both are correct. Rather, that it should be discussed with the specific player. I don't think there is a right or wrong on this and that it was left very ambiguous intentionally.  I think it's more flavor than anything else.

[Kaldra]

i wholeheartedly agree. and as always, its up to the group as to what to allow and not allow.

[Ryan_Singer]

Drashna,

Yep, those are indeed the limiting factors. All of his items show as enchanted (altough only one slot each), and thus could be disarmed, taken away, etc. There is the chance he could have to leave them aside entering certain situations (although Harry rarely gives up his blasting rod, or even his gun). Also, the social track. Like all characters, and especially casters, he is a little short on skills, and doesn't have much to do in a social encounter.

Also, while his staff doesn't have the flexibility to do AE, his potions can be grenades. =)

[sinker]

Wow, everyone is so hostile towards this concept. One of the things that my many years of gaming and GMing have taught me is that the GM is not the enemy of the players, and this system in particular is one that encourages the GM and the players to cooperate. If this concept works and is fun for everyone then that's great. There's no reason to be so negative about it. If you and your players find it unbalanced and/or it's creating a situation where one person is grossly more powerful than the others then your job as the GM is to take that person aside and try to help them understand what they are doing to the group (or I know there are some groups who work though it together). As long as everyone is enjoying the game there's no reason to try to ruin the concept that someone has so clearly put so much work into.

[Drashna]

Sinker, I almost agree with you.  It's that the original post had more of a "I'm not sure about this, how do I deal with it" feel to it. And it's lot easier to break apart something than it is to support it.

But personally, I don't see a problem with allowing it. Yes, you lock yourself down to what you do but maybe you're a wizard that believes that all his power *must* be channeled through objects.  And it really *should* be part of the characters high concept (or so *I* believe),  which means things like destroying his lab, or removing his items should be considered compels. Again, at least that's what I think.  I'm sure people will disagree with me.

It feels counter-intuitive to Dresden Files, but there is no reason it isn't completely viable.    I just wanted to provide examples that bring to light the disadvantages of such a character. Obviously, Ryan has provided the proof that the concept works, and works great.

Ryan, I can think of an easy block against potions: wind.   Can you imagine what would happen if that character threw that "grenade" and it flew back at him?

[sinker]

Ha! Hilarious!

On that same vein I would suggest a high weapons skill and maybe the good arm stunt.

[Drashna]

Precisely.   And that's what you give up when you give up versatility.

I mean, seriously, there are plenty of ways *around* the issue. Even in D&D, characters geared for direct conflict rarely can deal with the "round about" problems. And if you make it funny for everyone, you can still knock the player down a peg or two, and get a great laugh. And isn't that the point?