Generic NPCs

[Silverblaze]

I actually kinda like the magical carrier pigeon one.  I'd totally allow that one.

I think you're onto somethign with this Hollow power.

[Sanctaphrax]

@The Mighty Buzzard: If you have beef, tell me about it. Problems can be fixed. (As long as they aren't problems with the basic structure of Thaumaturgy.)

@Silverblaze: Thanks.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

The main issue I have at the moment is you, correct me if I'm wrong, price wholly conjured constructs the same as you would a physically created construct or something that actually used to be alive.  My head tells me that conjured constructs should cost quite a lot, crafted should cost less because you don't have to conjure the material, and mortal remains should cost even less because they don't require a conjuring and have a strong thaumaturgic tie with having been actually alive previously.  Yeah, you could do some of that with declarations on the construction of the crafted constructs but less so for mortal remains, so I don't see declarations clearing that up.

The rest I don't feel like getting into at the moment.  Two hours of sleep has my brain stuck in second gear today.

[Sanctaphrax]

Hm.

I disagree. Complexity should be based on effect, not on narration. A fire evocation that looks like ten thousand blazing butterflies shouldn't be harder to cast than a fire evocation that looks like a fireball. Same principle here.

And I don't see why Declarations couldn't provide a benefit for using mortal remains.

As for the rest...there's no hurry. I'm not going anywhere.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Complexity should be based on effect, not on narration. A fire evocation that looks like ten thousand blazing butterflies shouldn't be harder to cast than a fire evocation that looks like a fireball. Same principle here.

PDF vs Hardcover.  Same effect, different means, different cost.  For a very broad definition of "same effect" much like summoned construct vs golem vs zombie.

I like simple but I think you may be oversimplifying after spending so much time trying to get stunts and powers balanced.  Thaumaturgy is inherently unbalanced.  It defaults to a new wizard being able to cast the same spells as the Merlin if he takes his time setting up and doesn't rush the casting.  It costs ~50% more for a zombie than it does for a ward that can keep it out.  Thaumaturgy's so unbalanced it's pretty much got to be primarily about narrative.

And I don't see why Declarations couldn't provide a benefit for using mortal remains.

Oh, they could, but I'd be hard pressed to get anywhere near as many declarations thought up for a corpse I dug up as I could for a golem I crafted. Non-vessel declarations being assumed equal.

And yet zombie raising comes off as much quicker and easier in DB.  I mean that's pretty well spelled out as to why the Laws are what they are.  They're there to limit the easiest ways to power.  Stands to reason necromancy is easier than golem construction or construct summoning.

[Sanctaphrax]

And now, Kraken stats.

Got a lot of mileage out of some custom powers here. Love it when that happens.

Anyway, I think I have enough examples of the new powers now.

Kraken (Scuba Diving)

High Concept: The Kraken
Other Aspects: I Want To Hug You, Destroyer Of Ships, Smarter Than It Looks
Skills:
Fantastic: Might, Fists
Superb: Endurance, Athletics
Great: Discipline, Alertness
Good: Conviction, Survival
Fair: Intimidation, Investigation, Lore
Average: Presence, Empathy, Scholarship
Stunts:
Tentacles (Might): +1 to grapple.
Constrict (Might): No penalty to grapples for supplemental actions to inflict stress.
Powers:
Echoes Of The Beast (Octopus) [-1]
Aquatic (Not Amphibious) [-0]
Claws [-1]
Titanic Size [-4]
Swallow Whole [-1/-2]
Long Reach [-1]
Extra Appendages (Excellent Coordination x2) [-4]
Mythic Strength [-6]
Mythic Toughness [-6]
Inhuman Recovery [-2]
The Catch (attacks to the inside of the beak) [+1]
Total Refresh Cost:
-26/-27
Refresh Total:
-8/-9

[Sanctaphrax]

No offense, but PDFs and hardcovers is an absolutely awful analogy.

You're quite right about the problems with Thaumaturgy, though.

And believe it or not, the system here was originally intended as a loose guideline. But it turns out that I'm really awful at loose. I always try for rigour and simplicity...may have gone too far with that here. Not sure how to loosen this in a good way, though.

Not sure about the Law point. I generally don't use them for balance, for a variety of reasons. And I don't see them as blocking the easy paths to power; I see them as blocking the powers that are for whatever reason cosmically bad. But I could be wrong about that.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

I thought it was a pretty good analogy.  PDFs and conjured constructs both have the same effect but no "real" physical substance and hardcover and constructed constructs both take a real physical shell and slap the important bits inside.  Granted it's not an in-game analogy but I thought it covered the point I was trying to make.

I still prefer the three spell way of doing bindings to pseudo-animate objects but if they prefer to do it all in one go, I don't really have a problem with that.  I'm fine with using the detailed creation of a physical body as a buttload of declarations to cheapen up proper golems too.  I still think they're getting off too cheap though.  Courier Capsule only costs 14 but a rock bottom zombie costs a minimum of 16 and there's no mojo to a zombie but a summoning and a binding.  They're essentially getting a NN matter body for free.  Add 33-50% to the cost to allow for body creation then let the golem makers make declarations for all the work they put into the body and I'd be fine with it.

Why I said that about the laws?  That's more or less how Luccio explained why the laws are what they are to Harry.  It reflects well in how the mental stress track is the easiest way to take someone out and in how dead people or people turned into ladybugs hardly ever come back around trying to kill you.  The 6th and 7th laws are basically to keep the universe from getting irreparably broken.  Even Kemmler couldn't manage to break the world and he was an uber-badass at necromancy, so I'm inclined to think necromancy falls mostly in with the first four.

[Sanctaphrax]

Will respond in more detail later, for now just want to cover why I don't like that analogy:

The factors that play into the price of a book or PDF are completely unrelated to the factors that play into the price of a fictional ritual. The book/PDF costs what it does for financial and practical reasons. The ritual costs what it does for mechanical and narrative reasons.

The two situations are so different that they cannot provide meaningful information on one another. Because the factors that go into pricing a book or PDF are completely irrelevant in pricing a ritual.

[Sanctaphrax]

A zombie has the same number of powers as a Courier Capsule and more skill points. So of course it costs more.

The bottom line of what I'm saying is that if two entities are mechanically identical, they should have the same cost to produce.

Why should calling it a zombie instead of a robot change anything?

As for the laws: I don't actually agree. But regardless, this is outside the scope of these rules. If breaking the Laws is supposed to be more powerful, it should be made so in the rules for the Laws rather than the rules for the various branches of magic.

[Sanctaphrax]

Taking the new Displacement power for a test drive by adapting D&D monsters. Presenting: the blink dog and the displacer beast.

Displacer Beast (Feet In The Water)

High Concept: Displacer Beast
Other Aspects: Oddly Sadistic, Enemy Of The Blink Dog, Like A Puma With Tentacles
Skills:
Great: Fists, Athletics
Good: Endurance, Survival
Fair: Alertness, Stealth
Average: Intimidation, Might
Powers:
Claws [-1]
Echoes Of The Beast [-1]
Pack Instincts [-1]
Inhuman Strength [-2]
Inhuman Speed [-2]
Enhanced Displacement [-2]
Total Refresh Cost:
-9
Refresh Total:
-3

Blink Dog (Feet In The Water)

High Concept: Blink Dog
Other Aspects: Lawful Good, Enemy Of The Displacer Beast, Pack Hunter
Skills:
Great: Fists, Athletics
Good: Endurance, Survival
Fair: Alertness, Stealth
Average: Intimidation, Might
Powers:
Claws [-1]
Echoes Of The Beast [-1]
Pack Instincts [-1]
Inhuman Strength [-2]
Inhuman Speed [-2]
Blinking [-2]
Total Refresh Cost:
-9
Refresh Total:
-3

[hntdsoul]

Did anyone do a generic version of Toot? Did I miss it?

[Sanctaphrax]

If it was Toot-toot, then it wouldn't be generic, right?

Not sure exactly what you're asking for here.

[hntdsoul]

Sorry, I guess I didn't word that well. I was wondering if someone did a good generic sprite. One you'd encounter at the local park or scavenging out or the nearest Old Chicago dumpster....

[Sanctaphrax]

Don't think it's been done. Lemme try:

Pixie (Hydrophobic)

High Concept: Pixie
Other Aspects: Lover Of Mortal Food, Scatterbrained, Pixies Everywhere
Skills:
Fair: Contacts
Average: Presence, Rapport, Lore, Empathy, Survival, Stealth, Deceit, Investigation
Powers:
Diminutive Size [-1]
Wings [-1]
Total Refresh Cost:
-2
Refresh Total:
0