An Actual Fullautomacchius

[MijRai]

I wonder, if a GM was fine with it, could you make a broken Sword of the Cross into a Gun of the Cross? My inspiration was the Dark Tower series, and Roland Deschain's revolvers made with Excalibur.
The Gun of the Cross would have to be able to hold the nail, so it'd work in a rifle, shotgun, maybe a revolver. A revolver would probably fit the image better.
It'd have the same abilities, just It Is What It Is would be a gun.

My idea for the backstory for one of them goes like this:
Amoracchius was taken into the West by the user, to stop some big evil (a Naagloshii, perhaps). In the course of the fight, the Naagloshii scares/tricks/hires someone to pervert the Sword, and it is destroyed. A priest or some-such saved the nail, and took it to a devout smith. He didn't know how to make a sword, but he could make a gun. Thus, the Gun of the Cross was born. It was given to a sheriff, and he fought evil with it, and he passed it on to his apprentice, and it kept getting passed on.

[Dumbledresden]

Basically the rules for an item of power don't state that the "It is what it is" part of the power has to be some kind of melee-combat weapon. The big advantage will be, that you can do attacks from up to 2 zones away, which should make the Item a little bit more expensive (- 1 / - 2?)

Besides from the fact that it would be non-canonical and a little bit strange because the bullets which actually do the damage don't have real contact with the nail that empowers them, i don't see any reasons why it shouldn't be possible to build and allow such a weapon.

[MijRai]

Basically the rules for an item of power don't state that the "It is what it is" part of the power has to be some kind of melee-combat weapon. The big advantage will be, that you can do attacks from up to 2 zones away, which should make the Item a little bit more expensive (- 1 / - 2?)

Besides from the fact that it would be non-canonical and a little bit strange because the bullets which actually do the damage don't have real contact with the nail that empowers them, i don't see any reasons why it shouldn't be possible to build and allow such a weapon.

First, what? I know the rules don't state what the It Is What It Is has to be. I am clarifying that for a Gun of the Cross, it would probably be a gun. You know, common sense. Besides, equipment doesn't have a refresh cost.

It would be non-canon. Just like the ability to play as a Knight of the Cross would be non-canon, since either Sanya or Harry has the Swords. My example would also be non-canon, since Amoracchius is the only sword to have not been reforged yet. as far as the bullets not being special, I'd say being shot from a device with a Nail of the Cross in it would make them special.

[babel2uk]

First, what? I know the rules don't state what the It Is What It Is has to be. I am clarifying that for a Gun of the Cross, it would probably be a gun. You know, common sense. Besides, equipment doesn't have a refresh cost.

As far as I could see the guy was just answering your question... Would it be possible? Yes, if as you say the GM is willing to allow it. It would be an Item of Power so the refresh cost comment is perfectly valid to represent the fact that you can do damage from further away than the Sword of the Cross could.

However, I'd also be a little dubious about just allowing any bullet to be fired with the effects of the sword of the cross. Let me qualify that remark by adding that all I'd be asking for would be a little flavour with the preparation of the bullets - something like they have to be made by the wielder of the gun and the tips of the bullets have to be cooled in holy water, or something similar to sanctify them to a purpose. If you run out of such ammunition during the story then you could still use it as a gun, but you'd need to pistol whip the bad guy to take the full advantage of the 'of the Cross' abilities.

There's actually another model of a magical sword being made into guns, and that's the Saint of Killers from the Preacher comics. Guns that never miss (or hardly ever) and can kill anything (including god) forged from the sword of the angel of death.

[MijRai]

As far as I could see the guy was just answering your question... Would it be possible? Yes, if as you say the GM is willing to allow it. It would be an Item of Power so the refresh cost comment is perfectly valid to represent the fact that you can do damage from further away than the Sword of the Cross could.

However, I'd also be a little dubious about just allowing any bullet to be fired with the effects of the sword of the cross. Let me qualify that remark by adding that all I'd be asking for would be a little flavour with the preparation of the bullets - something like they have to be made by the wielder of the gun and the tips of the bullets have to be cooled in holy water, or something similar to sanctify them to a purpose. If you run out of such ammunition during the story then you could still use it as a gun, but you'd need to pistol whip the bad guy to take the full advantage of the 'of the Cross' abilities.

There's actually another model of a magical sword being made into guns, and that's the Saint of Killers from the Preacher comics. Guns that never miss (or hardly ever) and can kill anything (including god) forged from the sword of the angel of death.

Well, except for Holy, the powers are ranged. One is +1 to hit when using it from True Aim. That's a Stunt attached to the gun. All Creatures are Equal has no range added to it. In fact, it doesn't even say it has to be the Weapon that does the damage (although it could be implied to be that way). One guy I discussed the Swords with was worried the Knight would use it and then toss and hand grenade at the baddie.
When
facing an opponent, the Knight may spend a
fate point to ignore that opponent’s defensive
abilities (Toughness based ones, primarily),
as well as any mundane armor the foe has, for
the duration of the scene.

I'd say it could be the GM's choice on how it is used that way, but as far as mechanics go, there is no more cost. Maybe if you made it into a revolver, it would have a +1 Rebate instead of a +2, but it depends on the gun.

[babel2uk]

Well, except for Holy, the powers are ranged. One is +1 to hit when using it from True Aim. That's a Stunt attached to the gun. All Creatures are Equal has no range added to it. In fact, it doesn't even say it has to be the Weapon that does the damage (although it could be implied to be that way). One guy I discussed the Swords with was worried the Knight would use it and then toss and hand grenade at the baddie.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that. The strong implication in the Sword's description is that the sword itself must be used as the weapon in order to take advantage of the All Creatures are Equal - it essentially fulfills any catch on the enemy's toughness powers (along with ignoring mundane defences) - to have it not need to be the weapon that is used against the enemy would be a little like hitting a Faerie with a baseball bat and trying to claim that the bat fulfills the Faerie's catch because you're wearing a cold iron knife in your belt. I'd certainly be wary of giving a player a weapon capable of ignoring armour and any toughness ability from up to 2 zones away. I'd allow the weapon as a -4 refresh, rather than the current -3, simply to take into account the increased range on some of the powers.

[Tsunami]

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that. The strong implication in the Sword's description is that the sword itself must be used as the weapon in order to take advantage of the All Creatures are Equal - it essentially fulfills any catch on the enemy's toughness powers (along with ignoring mundane defences) - to have it not need to be the weapon that is used against the enemy would be a little like hitting a Faerie with a baseball bat and trying to claim that the bat fulfills the Faerie's catch because you're wearing a cold iron knife in your belt. I'd certainly be wary of giving a player a weapon capable of ignoring armour and any toughness ability from up to 2 zones away. I'd allow the weapon as a -4 refresh, rather than the current -3, simply to take into account the increased range on some of the powers.

Remember when Harry fights Nicodemus on the Boat at the end of Small Favor? The Sword light up, and

"[...]the sword did for me what it had always done for them—it leveled the field, stripping away all the supernatural trappings and leaving only a struggle of mind versus mind and will versus will, one man against another."

Sound a lot like All creatures are Equal to me... and Harry was not using the sword as a weapon at that moment.
I think it's a bit of a judgement call...

[Genhuman]

]

Well, except for Holy, the powers are ranged. One is +1 to hit when using it from True Aim. That's a Stunt attached to the gun. All Creatures are Equal has no range added to it. In fact, it doesn't even say it has to be the Weapon that does the damage (although it could be implied to be that way). One guy I discussed the Swords with was worried the Knight would use it and then toss and hand grenade at the baddie.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that. The strong implication in the Sword's description is that the sword itself must be used as the weapon in order to take advantage of the All Creatures are Equal

Personally, I, as the GM, would rule that you would need to use the weapon in question, to take advantage of All Creatures are Equal.  On the other hand, just having finished rereading Small Favor yesterday, I can see how people could use it to justify not needing to use the actual holy weapon.  

They would probably argue, 1) that is why Sanya uses his assault rifle, and even more 2)

(click to show/hide)

When Harry and Nicodemus are fighting in the boat, Harry starts to strangle Nic, and when Nic tries to use his 'shadow' to attack Harry, the sword on his back flashes, and repels it, Doing what its supposed to do, creating an even playing field.

I know, I didn't need a spoiler tag for that, but hey, you never know who may be reading these things.  

So, I guess it all boils down to how permisive is the GM.

[Genhuman]

LOL.  Guess I need to type faster next time.

[babel2uk]

]

(click to show/hide)

When Harry and Nicodemus are fighting in the boat, Harry starts to strangle Nic, and when Nic tries to use his 'shadow' to attack Harry, the sword on his back flashes, and repels it, Doing what its supposed to do, creating an even playing field.

I'd have said that's far more in line with 'Holy' than All Creatures are Equal. Let's not forget that Harry has the Soulfire ability as well, which would arguably interact favourably with the Sword's abilities.

[MijRai]

I'd have said that's far more in line with 'Holy' than All Creatures are Equal. Let's not forget that Harry has the Soulfire ability as well, which would arguably interact favourably with the Sword's abilities.

How does that equate with Holy? We've seen Denarians go into churches, no pain there. From the hundreds of Knights and thousands of clergy he has killed, I doubt Holy repels him. The Sword did one thing on Small Favor. It made them equal. Hence, All Creatures Are Equal.

[babel2uk]

How does that equate with Holy? We've seen Denarians go into churches, no pain there. From the hundreds of Knights and thousands of clergy he has killed, I doubt Holy repels him. The Sword did one thing on Small Favor. It made them equal. Hence, All Creatures Are Equal.

Um, because it repels an attack (rules-wise in an identical way to the description given under Holy Touch of compelling an adversary's high aspect). All Creatures are Equal specifically states that it allows the user to ignore an opponents defences, not remove their attack abilities. Holy might not repel him, but it may well affect his shadow, which is implied to be something else entirely. That's my reasoning anyway. YMMV.

Obviously the wording in the rulebook and the wording in Small Favours clash a little on what the sword does. Personally I think that if you go with the Small Favours version of the power - which strips away and and all supernatural abilities - then the rules massively undercharge for the Swords.

[toturi]

First, what? I know the rules don't state what the It Is What It Is has to be. I am clarifying that for a Gun of the Cross, it would probably be a gun. You know, common sense. Besides, equipment doesn't have a refresh cost.

I agree. There are advantages to having a Gun of the Cross, instead of a Sword. But that is inherent in "It is what it is". The ability to do range is offset by the inability to defend, this are the tradeoffs of using Guns instead of Weapons.

[Shecky]

Obviously the wording in the rulebook and the wording in Small Favours clash a little on what the sword does. Personally I think that if you go with the Small Favours version of the power - which strips away and and all supernatural abilities - then the rules massively undercharge for the Swords.

Small Favor does not say this. Bad guys recoil from it like it hurts them and hampers them; it says nothing about stripping away any supernatural abilities.

[babel2uk]

This discussion is making me lose the will to live, especially when people can't be bothered to read the previous posts!

Small Favor does not say this. Bad guys recoil from it like it hurts them and hampers them; it says nothing about stripping away any supernatural abilities.

Remember when Harry fights Nicodemus on the Boat at the end of Small Favor? The Sword light up, and

"[...]the sword did for me what it had always done for them—it leveled the field, stripping away all the supernatural trappings and leaving only a struggle of mind versus mind and will versus will, one man against another."

I'm assuming that Tsunami is quoting directly from the book, and that's what my comment was based on.