Author Topic: Deus ex Deus?  (Read 3490 times)

Offline QuicksilverKite

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Deus ex Deus?
« on: September 10, 2010, 06:16:11 AM »
I'm an aspiring novelist and have run into a literary conundrum that I can't seem to get past...

I've been working on a story for several months now (writing in my free time, which is sparse) and I am having a hard time not making plot/conflict resolutions feel contrived. This is mostly due to the fact that a god is a central idea in the story. So I guess my question is how do you take the "Deus ex Machina" out when the "Deus" is the machine in the first place?

Offline OZ

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Re: Deus ex Deus?
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2010, 08:11:05 AM »
How powerful is this god? If s/he is too powerful and too involved it will be difficult to have enough conflict to keep the story interesting. Is this a world with multiple gods? Is the god the main character, a main character, or a very involved lesser character? It's hard to know what to suggest without knowing a little bit more about the god's involvement.
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Offline QuicksilverKite

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Re: Deus ex Deus?
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2010, 08:40:32 AM »
it is the judeo-christian god, the protagonist is a devout knight type of character and while there is no overt involvement I don't want the reader to assume that just because something strange happens it's because "God did it".

Offline OZ

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Re: Deus ex Deus?
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2010, 08:59:06 AM »
Unless you have God taking an active part early in the story, most will not expect his involvement. If an explanation is needed for why he is not more active in assisting the knight, you can go many different ways. I'm sure I can't think of all of them but they might range from something as simple as God allowing the knight to grow (which would not happen if all of his problems were solved divinely) to some internal conflict on the knight's part which puts him in a place where he can't access God's help ( lack of faith, failure to follow instructions, etc.) Obviously this would all depend on the character of your knight. I think Elizabeth Moon does a good job with this in her Paksenarrion books. There is some direct involvement by her (Paksenarrion's) god in a few places but for the most part she's on her own.
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Offline Starbeam

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Re: Deus ex Deus?
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2010, 12:51:18 PM »
Honestly, I'd say to look at how the Knights of the Cross are done.  Strange and coincidental things happen with them around, and they never, at least to me, feel contrived.
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Re: Deus ex Deus?
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2010, 03:29:35 PM »
Honestly, I'd say to look at how the Knights of the Cross are done.  Strange and coincidental things happen with them around, and they never, at least to me, feel contrived.

They don't?  OK, they totally do to me. (Not "contrived by Jim", "contrived by the in-story White God")
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Offline QuicksilverKite

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Re: Deus ex Deus?
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2010, 04:43:40 PM »
Maybe it's the character himself that I'm struggling with...
He has actually seen his god and his mission is handed to him... His motivation to do what he does is more that of a tool or weapon, and not that a person with choice. His struggle with his own humanity is a large part of the story, and when things fall into place... I guess it just seems hard to show the free will of a character when they are predestined to do what they do, you know?

Offline Shecky

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Re: Deus ex Deus?
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2010, 05:29:19 PM »
They don't?  OK, they totally do to me. (Not "contrived by Jim", "contrived by the in-story White God")

Of course. The same way the Other Side manipulates everything it can get its hands on, just to a far different degree.
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Offline Starbeam

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Re: Deus ex Deus?
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2010, 05:34:22 PM »
They don't?  OK, they totally do to me. (Not "contrived by Jim", "contrived by the in-story White God")
Yeah...I need to remember not to post before I'm completely awake.  The fact that the other suggestion that popped into my mind was The Belgariad should've warned me.

Maybe it's the character himself that I'm struggling with...
He has actually seen his god and his mission is handed to him... His motivation to do what he does is more that of a tool or weapon, and not that a person with choice. His struggle with his own humanity is a large part of the story, and when things fall into place... I guess it just seems hard to show the free will of a character when they are predestined to do what they do, you know?
What exactly is the situation?  It's difficult to really give an answer when what we're given is only little bits and pieces.
"You must stay drunk on writing so reality cannot destroy you." Ray Bradbury

Offline QuicksilverKite

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Re: Deus ex Deus?
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2010, 05:59:18 PM »
the knight character is given a mission by an angel... when he questions certain parameters the angel gives him an "instant replay" of everything that hasn't happened yet. so the knight moves in the way he was told he was, feeling more like a pawn than a player. It makes for great internal conflict but externally it feels contrived...

Offline Kali

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Re: Deus ex Deus?
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2010, 06:09:22 PM »
I would say it doesn't count as contrived if the knight knows he's being manipulated and is angry about it.  Hanging a lantern on a plot device is a great way to get audience forgiveness.
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Offline Starbeam

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Re: Deus ex Deus?
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2010, 06:43:44 PM »
the knight character is given a mission by an angel... when he questions certain parameters the angel gives him an "instant replay" of everything that hasn't happened yet. so the knight moves in the way he was told he was, feeling more like a pawn than a player. It makes for great internal conflict but externally it feels contrived...
What Kali said is a good way to do it.  Plus, depending out how you describe the "instant replay" thing, you could get quite a bit out of that.  Like it shows how what the knight is doing is predetermined, but when he comes to each obstacle, give him multiple choices, but the predetermined choice always being the best of the choices.  Or have the instant replay thingie not show him everything but just bits and pieces, so maybe he knows how he'll choose to do something, but nothing showing what makes him choose.  For that one, two examples come to mind--Wizard's First Rule when a character is told both his friends will turn against him but not the how or why of it, and one of the first season episodes of Torchwood when the characters get flashes of the future but don't know how exactly it'll happen, and when they try, it ends up happening how they saw it.
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Offline belial.1980

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Re: Deus ex Deus?
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2010, 02:46:53 AM »
the knight character is given a mission by an angel... when he questions certain parameters the angel gives him an "instant replay" of everything that hasn't happened yet. so the knight moves in the way he was told he was, feeling more like a pawn than a player. It makes for great internal conflict but externally it feels contrived...

Random thought: how does the knight know that the angel isn't the devil in disguise, manipulating the knight into doing something really evil? What better victory than to turn an agent of God into a pawn of the devil. Just thought I'd toss that out there. Moving on to the question at hand. So you feel like the character is being strung along, essentially?

Hmm. Without knowing more about the specifics of your story I suggest you consider putting the knight through several try/fail cycles. So the angel has shown him the path he must follow and the consequences of not succeeding in this mission, correct? Put unexpected roadblocks along the way. And have the knight fail at passing said roadblocks. Have him fail more than he succeeds, and work it so that each failure results in complications that make his overarching goal even harder. But don't let the angel or holy powers bail him out. Force the knight to rely on his abilities, his allies, and his faith to overcome the growing series of tribulations. I'm not sure if that's what you're looking for, but that might lead to more conflict. Good luck, whatever you decide to do.

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