Scion lawman

[Leatherneck]

Would a threshold cause problems for a scion lawman?  In the case of a Scion, they are not completely a supernatural being.  In this specific case, the High Concept is “Demon Spawn US Marshal”   The guy needs to be able to bust in doors to chase after fugitives. 

I am sure he would want to have his Inhuman Speed and Supernatural Sense while looking in dark closets and going down creaky basement stairs.

[Morgan]

Probably not, anybody that is at least half human shouldn't have too much trouble with a Threshold especially if they aren't doing any magic. Also most of the places that a US Marshal is going to be kicking down doors probably won't have too much of a Threshold to worry about, cheap hotels, high turn over apartments, and houses converted to criminal purposes and the like are not conducive to forming strong Thresholds.

Now that said maybe such a character would have trouble on Holy Ground, though hopefully he won't be raiding too many churches. Really any time you or your GM wanted it to be an issue sounds like it would be a great time to Compel your character's High Concept.

[Lukas the Dead]

In short: Yes.

In long: At the very least he is going to leave a lot of his power at the door.

However, if he busts into a place with a strong threshold, he might want to start wondering if he's in the right spot. A drug den or meeting spot for criminals is going to be more like an office building than a home. Even a criminal "safe house" is at very extreme best going to have only a weak threshold, as those hiding there will constantly be questioning the safety (and likely be living there on their own or with those they don't really trust). Remember, Victor Sells' lakehouse had no threshold.

Still, busting into someone's home or apartment is going to lead to difficulties, those are the downsides to magical powers. However, it shouldn't be as big a problem as you seem to fear.

[Lukas the Dead]

Wrong button.

[JustinS]

So, if you are in the US, would a legal warrant count as an invitation from the perspective of thresholds?

The land is under the claim of the government, and a warrant is due permission to enter in the mortal realm.

Strong motivation to do things by the book...

[Kaldra]

thats an interesting point, i would have to read up on what rights a warrant acutaly gives an officer, but i think that would be a good way regardless of what happens in rl for game purposes. also you swear to uphold the law when you become an officer, with people who have power oaths carry great weight... do things by the book or else your strength could take a sabbatical...

i like that as a trouble.

[Leatherneck]

also you swear to uphold the law when you become an officer, with people who have power oaths carry great weight... do things by the book or else your strength could take a sabbatical...

That’s the issue.  Are inherited supernatural powers affected by barriers?  Thresholds.  Oaths.  I’m thinking of non-spell powers.  In this case it is Inhuman Speed and Supernatural Sense.  But this also applies to other powers.

Beyond the scion demon spawn.  What about shapsifters; Weres, Lycanthropes, and Loup-Garou?  If they cross the threshold or break an oath, do the loose power?    That sort of weakens the idea of a crazed Loup-Garou smashing into a home and slaughtering everyone there.  Then there are the changelings.  Are they limited even though they have not become full Fae?  I don’t remember anything in the books stating that scion and changelings were held back by thresholds.  (but I could very well be wrong)

If just having supernatural powers keeps you from crossing thresholds and makes oaths mystically binding, it will have a huge affect on all but Pure Mortal PC’s.

[Lukas the Dead]

So, if you are in the US, would a legal warrant count as an invitation from the perspective of thresholds?

The land is under the claim of the government, and a warrant is due permission to enter in the mortal realm.

Strong motivation to do things by the book...

I'd argue that one fairly hard as none of the people involve in the granting of a warrant are in anyway connected with the people whose feelings created the threshold. After all, when Harry was trying to help Mickey Malone, Murphy could legally allow him access to the building but he had to get Mickey's wife to give him permission to use his power.

[Morgan]

As far as Alphas style werewolves and lycanthropes and thresholds personally I would say they don't do anything to them. Loup-Garou and Changelings being effected by thresholds I'd say that's a maybe. But a Changeling is usually human enough to not have it matter, and a Loup-Garou on a tear might not even notice that there was a threshold unless it was strong enough to make a physical barrier against such a monster, and even then the Loup could probably just tear it down given enough time.
 
Really it comes down to the character's High Concept. Do you want to make an issue out of crossing a threshold? Then compel yourself to either not enter or check a good portion of your power at the door. If you or your GM thinks it might make a interesting story twist to have a threshold stop you then the Fate Point economy should kick in and settle things. Unless it is a really strong threshold or you are dealing with a creature that has it as their particular shtick (Black Court Vampires, Powerful True Fae, etc.) I would say it comes down to making the story interesting with compels, or if your GM wants the threshold to act as a key plot point.

One thing that you might consider is that powerful thresholds are probably pretty rare, the only time I can easily recall it being an issue in the novels is at the Malone home, which is a single family home that had been lived in for decades by a loving family and that is the type of situation that creates a strong threshold. Rental Apartments, newly bought homes, unhappy homes, most condos, single occupant dwellings, crowded lofts, all of these places might as well have thresholds made out of tissue paper if they have them at all. About the only other place that I can think of with a strong threshold outside of Holy Ground like St. Mary's of the Angels, is probably the Carpenter's House.

[Morgan]

I'd argue that one fairly hard as none of the people involve in the granting of a warrant are in anyway connected with the people whose feelings created the threshold. After all, when Harry was trying to help Mickey Malone, Murphy could legally allow him access to the building but he had to get Mickey's wife to give him permission to use his power.

And that's the point, Harry could have walked right on in but he would have had to check his power at the door. Perfect example of Harry's player compelling his High Concept to make trouble for himself.

[wolff96]

I'd argue that one fairly hard as none of the people involve in the granting of a warrant are in anyway connected with the people whose feelings created the threshold. After all, when Harry was trying to help Mickey Malone, Murphy could legally allow him access to the building but he had to get Mickey's wife to give him permission to use his power.

We actually don't know that Harry required the permission of Mickey's wife.  We know that he *felt* that he needed that permission.  And while I normally wouldn't be that pedantic, I think it's important to this topic...

Magic comes from within and is a reflection of who your character is at a fundamental level -- thus the "Lawbreaker" reflecting that your character, deep down, believes magical murder (for example) to be justified in at least some circumstances.  

HARRY believes that he needs Mickey's wife's permission to enter the house with the full use of his powers.  Therefore, for Harry her permission is required.

If the Scion Lawman mentioned above truly and fundamentally believes in the law and that it gives him permission to persecute offenders wherever they go...  Belief and free are such an intrinsic part of this system that I would allow the argument that a legal and court-ordered warrant could bypass a threshold for that character -- *IF* the Lawman truly believes that it is a legal warrant.  I would also heavily restrict him if the warrant was obtained through shady means, on shaky evidence, or if he knew that the warrant wouldn't hold up on review.  

I kind of think this is akin to breaking an oath sworn by your power -- the lawman's faith in the law is giving him protection from hostile thresholds...  but only when the law is really giving him the right to enter that home.

Obviously, your mileage may vary, so I think this is a DM issue.  

[JosephKell]

We actually don't know that Harry required the permission of Mickey's wife.  We know that he *felt* that he needed that permission.  And while I normally wouldn't be that pedantic, I think it's important to this topic...

Magic comes from within and is a reflection of who your character is at a fundamental level -- thus the "Lawbreaker" reflecting that your character, deep down, believes magical murder (for example) to be justified in at least some circumstances.  

HARRY believes that he needs Mickey's wife's permission to enter the house with the full use of his powers.  Therefore, for Harry her permission is required.

If the Scion Lawman mentioned above truly and fundamentally believes in the law and that it gives him permission to persecute offenders wherever they go...  Belief and free are such an intrinsic part of this system that I would allow the argument that a legal and court-ordered warrant could bypass a threshold for that character -- *IF* the Lawman truly believes that it is a legal warrant.  I would also heavily restrict him if the warrant was obtained through shady means, on shaky evidence, or if he knew that the warrant wouldn't hold up on review.  

I kind of think this is akin to breaking an oath sworn by your power -- the lawman's faith in the law is giving him protection from hostile thresholds...  but only when the law is really giving him the right to enter that home.

Obviously, your mileage may vary, so I think this is a DM issue.  

No.  Harry needs permission because the whole point of him coming over is to use magic, and if he just walks through the threshold, he leaves his magic outside.  His argument for an invitation is because he can't just say, "Invite me in so I can do magic on your devote Christian husband."

You are wrong because if you are right, then all monsters have to do to ignore thresholds is convince themselves (1) they don't need invitations and/or (2) thresholds don't exist.  And since they can't do either, thresholds matter.

Facts of Thresholds (not inclusive):
0.  Without an invite the following facts are true.  An invitation by a person living behind the threshold grants exception to everything that follows.
1.  Thresholds never hedge out mortals or purely mortal things.  A non-mortal can throw a firebomb into a home just fine.  A non-mortal can try to violate a threshold but then they have to contend with whatever your GM feels is a fair wet blanket.
2.  Thresholds do hedge out mortal magic.  A mortal practitioner can walk through easily, but if they want to do their shtick (magic), they need to try really hard or get the invite first.

We haven't seen how thresholds effect mortals with special powers (Kincaid has never been scene violating a threshold).  The closest was when Susan stepped over Dresden's, but she didn't do anything then.  When she tried to vamp out it was later, after Dresden invited her in (I think it was more of a "Hurry up and get inside!").

But since vamping out would lead to bad things for Susan, it makes me think that her powers being dampened would be beneficial, so I would say maybe use the wet blanket approach (instead of the outright "no supernatural powers").

If you are behind a Fair threshold, increase all difficulties by 2 (defenders get a free +2 on their rolls as well).  While the initiative bonus of Inhuman Speed might still be advantageous, taking an effective -2 (or more) on all actions can suck (-2 on Might when trying to pin and apprehend a suspect?).

So a Lawman with a bit of the Nevernever in his veins is better off not using their mojo when operating behind a threshold.  Or get good at Deceit so you can get an invite before you go "Freeze! U.S. Marshals!"

[wolff96]

No.  Harry needs permission because the whole point of him coming over is to use magic, and if he just walks through the threshold, he leaves his magic outside.  His argument for an invitation is because he can't just say, "Invite me in so I can do magic on your devote Christian husband."

You are wrong because if you are right, then all monsters have to do to ignore thresholds is convince themselves (1) they don't need invitations and/or (2) thresholds don't exist.  And since they can't do either, thresholds matter.

Re-reading what I wrote, I have noticed that I wasn't clear on what I meant.  I'm not arguing that thresholds can be overcome by denial.  Harry had been invited in by several law officers and Murphy -- who was mentioned as being virtually family to the Malones -- was offered as another option for inviting him inside.  He held out for a family member that lived there, because it was the only way through that threshold according to his beliefs.  That distinction is (IMO, obviously) the issue.

The discussion here is who qualifies for invitation.  Does a legal authorization over-ride the resident with regards to the threshold.  Technically, the US government owns all of America and all housing within.  Search warrants specifically allow the duly appointed officer right of entry to a property to search it for illegal items or fugitives, based on evidence brought before a judge.  Does a legal command from the owner of a property override the wishes of a local land-holder?  That's what I'm trying to get at with legal warrants. 

Here's a question for you:  Could Mrs. Spunkelcrief (sp?), Harry's landlady who owns the building, invite someone into Harry's apartment?  Or can only Harry invite someone into his apartment?  If she can invite someone in, then why can't the actual owner of the property -- the US Government -- authorize entry?

I'm not trying to declare some grand rule to invalidate thresholds in my response.  But in the case of this specific character, I wouldn't have a problem with a legal warrant allowing him to kick in a door.   It's not free reign to ignore a threshold.  Unlike most TV shows, warrants aren't exactly easy as pie and incredibly fast to acquire.

[Morgan]

Here's a question for you:  Could Mrs. Spunkelcrief (sp?), Harry's landlady who owns the building, invite someone into Harry's apartment?  Or can only Harry invite someone into his apartment?  If she can invite someone in, then why can't the actual owner of the property -- the US Government -- authorize entry?

I'm not trying to declare some grand rule to invalidate thresholds in my response.  But in the case of this specific character, I wouldn't have a problem with a legal warrant allowing him to kick in a door.   It's not free reign to ignore a threshold.  Unlike most TV shows, warrants aren't exactly easy as pie and incredibly fast to acquire.

Harry's landlord could definitely invite someone into his apartment mainly because Harry has bubkes in the way of a threshold, bachelor in a rented apartment, as far as most things that have to worry about thresholds are concerned he might as well have an unlocked door with a welcome mat laid out for them. Which is why he makes do with a solid steel security door and enough wards to fry an elephant.

Now if you want to try and get technical with government search warrants and end runs around ancient mystical laws of the universe, cool. Personally I'd respond in my best Bob voice that Magic just doesn't work like that. As an example if Murphy and Harry had a search warrant to enter a home with a strong threshold, both of them could enter the home with no problem's legally, it's just that Harry would still have to leave a big portion of his Magic power at the door.

[Becq]

Thresholds aren't about legal ownership, they are about metaphysical investment.  If a residence is truly treated as a home (not just a place being lived in), then it will generally have a threshold.  Temporary residences (apartments, for example) tend not to.  And that ward is 'owned' by the family that makes the building a home, not by a landlord (though a rented dwelling is unlikely to have the metaphysical investment that creates the threshold) or a government.

So while a govenment could give you a *legal* right to enter a dwelling, it could not give you a *metaphysical* right to do so.  Only members of the family that contributed to making the dwelling a home could do so.  Which means that the Scion *would* be affected by the threshold, unless he was invited in by a residence.  This, of course, assumes that there is a threshold at all -- I find it unlikely that the sorts of people a legitimate lawman was sent after would be the types likely to have a home with a significant threshold, if any.

As an aside, Harry's basement has a ward, rather than a threshold (if there's a threshold at all, it's likely weak).  As such, Harry has much more control over it than a mundane family would over a family home's threshold.  He can specifically allow or disallow entry on a case-by-case basis, and has also set up 'charms' that allow entry to those he's given them to even if he is not available to grant them entrance, and he can turn the wards as a whole on or off, as well.