Author Topic: Feeding Dependency  (Read 2441 times)

Offline Becq

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Feeding Dependency
« on: August 26, 2010, 02:34:14 AM »
The Feeding Dependency (FD) rules do not make a lot of sense to me.

The discipline test required at the end of a scene in which you use FD-based powers is treated as an attack, with resulting stress hitting your hunger track.  You can absorb some or all of the stress by taking consequences.  But are powers lost automatically for each point of stress, in addition to the stress taken, or is power loss treated as an alternate 'consequence', thus absorbing some of the stress to avoid being taken out?

The rules appear to state the former, where it reads "If you cannot or do not wish to spare consequences, then you must lose access to a number of your powers, up to a refresh cost equal to the amount of stress taken", though the 'up to' part seems to be oddly worded.  (I.e., I must lose powers, but the number of powers could be less than the stress taken?)  However, the next bullet reads "If you have no powers left to lose and are taken out by a feeding failure, you are actually taken out", which implies the second interpretation.  That is, if I take a 5-stress hit and have only 4 boxes on my track and no consequences available, then I'd be taken out regardless of how many powers I have left ... unless they work a bit like special consequences, reducing the stress taken based on powers I choose to sacrifice (and only being taken out once all powers were sacrificed).

The second seems more in line with the rest of the system; the first interpretation also seem immensely severe.  Using Thomas Raith as an example, after an average fight scene in which he uses his full set of powers will result in three stress (6-shift attack vs good (+3) discipline), and therefore three scenes of down-time to recover his lost powers.

Offline luminos

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Re: Feeding Dependency
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2010, 05:20:51 AM »
The severe interpretation is the correct one.  Feeding Dependency means you either need to be very careful with how you use your powers, or that you don't have a problem with killing your victims.
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Offline jalrin

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Re: Feeding Dependency
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2010, 06:52:44 AM »
Actually the way i read it is the second way (as an alternate form of consequence) with the caveat that one must remember that hunger stress does not clear after a scene is over.  The problem with the harsher version is that it is completely different from how stress works in the entire rest of the system and leads to potentially absurd results where even an even role makes the character helpless for the rest of the evening (by having to opt out of 2-3 scenes after every fight). The alternate consequence model, by contrast, is less disruptive to the game while also yielding results more consistent with the source material (Vampires are not completely unable to do anything except thinking about feeding in the books unless have either really pushed themselves or have gone protracted periods without feeding).  It therefore is the best model for gameplay.

Offline luminos

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Re: Feeding Dependency
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2010, 07:24:25 AM »
Perhaps I am not understanding one or both of you correctly.

My interpretation is this, and tell me where you differ

-Stress from a hunger attack is resolved like stress from any other sort of attack.  You roll defense (discipline) against the strength of the attack, and if you tie or win the roll, you take no stress, and nothing else  happens. 
-Consequences also work normally.  You take a consequence and reduce the stress taken by an appropriate amount.
-If you don't beat the attack, and don't take enough consequences to completely eliminate the stress, you have to give up points of powers tied to the hunger that equal the shifts of stress left over after the defense and consequence reduction.
-Stress does not clear at the end of scenes
-Stress is gradually reduced and powers gradually regained if you feed at a slow and safe pace, usually off-screen
-Stress is fully eliminated if you feed deeply enough to kill, and all powers come back online
-You are under no obligation to use every single one of your powers for every fight.  If you don't won't to risk a 6 point hunger attack, only use a little bit of your supernatural mojo.
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Offline jalrin

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Re: Feeding Dependency
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2010, 07:39:34 AM »
Luminos, you and I agree for the most part.  The only difference seems to be that I think that if the stress from an attack can be fit into an empty stress box on the hunger track it can go there without any other problem aside from that box being there.

For example, say a white court vampire uses 4 of its 6 feeding dependent powers (it did not use its inhuman strength because this was a shoot out).  It would then roll a Great (+4) attack against its discipline.  So far we agree.  Suppose the character has weak discipline and rolls badly and takes two stress despite having fair discipline (which would give it three stress boxes).  If its second hunger stress box is empty, it can just check that box off and, aside from needing to clear it, nothing else happens.  I do not think that a power consequence is necessary for stress that has been placed on the hunger track any more than hunger stress dealt with via consequence.  Power loss is only there for stress that has not been dealt with using wither of the other ways.

This would appear to be the onyl area we disagree, as it sounds like you are saying that the vampire in my example would need to lose one of its powers even if it could absorb the hunger stress on its track.  That would seem to be the only area we disagree though.

Offline Becq

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Re: Feeding Dependency
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2010, 12:35:06 AM »
I do feel the second interpretation (power loss as alternate consequences) seems more in line with the system, but the problem with the second interpretation is that it seems too lenient.  It will lead to situations in which consequences only occur if more than a couple of scenes result in failed discipline rolls in a row.  (Because the rules also state that the hunger track is cleared by a subsequent successful FD/discipline check at the end of a scene.)  So, for example, if I had a semi-decent discipline (3 box hunger track) I could take up to three failures, then deliberate make light use of my powers in the fourth scene (possibly a non-combat scene?) to wipe the hunger track.  This also makes little sense, which leads me to the conclusion that this mechanic needs house rules.

Here's a first stab.  My attempt here is to make hunger management something the player has to deal with, while not making it crippling to the point of making the character unplayable.

Leave the "Hunger Is Stressful" section as is.

Change the "Limited Reserves" section as follows:

At the end of any scene in which you have exerted your affected powers, you must check to see if you experience feeding failure. This manifests as an attack with a strength equal to the total refresh cost of the abilities you used; you roll Discipline to defend. For example, if you used Inhuman Strength and Inhuman Toughness in the scene, that’s a total of 4 refresh, so you’d be rolling your Discipline to meet or beat a target of 4.  (Note that cost reductions such as The Catch do not reduce the refresh value of powers for purposes of Feeding Failure tests.)
* If you succeed, you avoid the worst ravages of your hunger.  Even so, you suffer a 1 stress hit to your hunger stress track.
* If you fail, you take hunger stress as though you’d suffered an attack.
* In either case, If you have physical or mental consequence slots open, you may use them to buy off the stress as per the normal rules (page 203). If you cannot or do not wish to spare consequences, then you may choose to lose access to a number of your powers, up to a refresh cost equal to the amount of stress taken. Reduce the stress taken by one for each refresh point of power sacrificed. These options can be combined however you choose.
* If there is sufficent stress remaining after any reductions from consequences or power loss to go past the end of your hunger track, then you are taken out by a feeding failure (resulting in complete incapacitation, extreme emaciation, and other nasty fates).

Change the "Failure Recovery" section as follows:

To recover from hunger consequences, regain lost powers, or remove hunger stress, you must feed as appropriate to your dependency.
* Any time you trigger your feeding power (ex: Blood Drinker or Emotional Vampire) while inflicting a consequence on the victim, you may remove one point of stress from your hunger track in addition to any other effects of the power.
* If you opt out of a scene entirely in order to feed, then you may make a feeding check using an appropriate ability against a difficulty determined by the GM.  (For example, A WCV that opts out of a scene in order to feed at a rave might test with Presence or Deceit against a mediocre difficulty, whereas a RCV who finds his reserves depleted in the middle of a wilderness might have a much harder time of it.)  If this check is successful, then all stress is removed from your hunger track and one point of lost power is recovered per shift generated.  Alternatively, some or all shifts can be used to recover from or reduce the severity of hunger-induced consequences regardless of the usual recovery time at the rate of one shift per shift worth of consequence.  For example, a severe consequence could be downgraded to a mild consequence if four shifts are allocated to it.
* You can regain all of your lost abilities (hunger-caused stress, power loss, and consequences) in one scene if you feed so forcefully as to kill a victim outright.

Any thoughts?  Some features of these house rules:
* A character with feeding dependency could probably hold off for several fights, so long as some care is taken with over-use of powers.  A high discipline is of considerable value here.
* With a 1-stress minimum (similar to the minimum stress caused by casting a spell), even the most disciplined vamps will deplete their reserves eventually if no attempt is made to feed.  Using feeding powers (appropriately) in combats can allow for some hunger mitigation.
* Opting out of a single scene has a reasonable chance of allowing full recovery from all but the worst hunger attacks or sustained abstinence.  This is especially true if the player comes up with a good feeding plan, thus minimizing the difficulty.

Some possible options:
* When determining the strength of the hunger attack, add one to the attack strength for each box already marked off on your hunger track (so if your first and third boxes had been previously marked off in the preceeding example, you would add +2 to the strength of the attack for a total attack strength of 6).
* It may be that the ability to feed during a normal scene is too powerful.  If so, this can be altered so that the character may either remove one stress box or one point of stress each time they take out (without killing) a victim using a feeding power.  Taking out a victim but avoiding killing them while feeding might require a discipline check, with a failed check being rather problematic for a RCV.