Author Topic: Two questions: Blocks and the subtle side of Spirit  (Read 3070 times)

Offline Enokh

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Two questions: Blocks and the subtle side of Spirit
« on: August 08, 2010, 11:46:20 AM »
I've looked around a bit for this, both on the forums and in YS: If I were to put up a block by way a shielding spell with a duration of, say, 4 exchanges, my action would be tied up for the first exchange (from casting the spell), but could I still roll Athletics/Fists/Weaponry to defend against attacks while my shield is up? If so, how does this work? I rather imagine it doesn't work unless you use the Armor version of such spells, but I figured I'd ask.

And now for the second: I'm gearing up for my very first Dresden game (very first Fate game, as well!) and I'm having trouble thinking of spells for the subtle side of Spirit. I've already got the whole Veil bit, and am stealing Hyperawareness example spell from YS. I've also read about someone's idea for a Zone of Truth (making it easier for you to detect people lying). Other than that, I'm drawing a complete blank, and would love people's opinions and suggestions on the matter.

Side question: Are you able to attack someone's Mental or Social stress track with Spirit (or any other magic) without breaking one of the Laws?

Thanks in advance for any help!

Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: Two questions: Blocks and the subtle side of Spirit
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2010, 01:10:41 PM »
I've looked around a bit for this, both on the forums and in YS: If I were to put up a block by way a shielding spell with a duration of, say, 4 exchanges, my action would be tied up for the first exchange (from casting the spell), but could I still roll Athletics/Fists/Weaponry to defend against attacks while my shield is up? If so, how does this work? I rather imagine it doesn't work unless you use the Armor version of such spells, but I figured I'd ask.

Sure! You can use whichever is higher (the defense roll or the flat block rating) on any individual attack...though if it beats the Block you're going to lose it, whether you still manage to dodge the attack or not. Why wouldn't you be able to? It's a Block, not a Defense per se.

And now for the second: I'm gearing up for my very first Dresden game (very first Fate game, as well!) and I'm having trouble thinking of spells for the subtle side of Spirit. I've already got the whole Veil bit, and am stealing Hyperawareness example spell from YS. I've also read about someone's idea for a Zone of Truth (making it easier for you to detect people lying). Other than that, I'm drawing a complete blank, and would love people's opinions and suggestions on the matter.

Mental defenses, any fairly quick illusion (probably holographic/light based ones to avoi lawbreaking), and any other effects you can think of using light (which is really quite subtle and potentially multifaceted), or mental effects (ditto). Mental attacks are definitely in here, too.

Side question: Are you able to attack someone's Mental or Social stress track with Spirit (or any other magic) without breaking one of the Laws?

There's no precedent for Social attacks EVER being provided by Powers, and I'm fairly sure that magic would mention if it could do that. So I don't think that can be done at all, never mind Lawbreaker.

As for Mental, that's definitely possible, but it's level of Lawbreaking depends on your GM, though I'd say it pretty much universally does, personally. On the other hand, the Laws only apply to humans...there's no reason you can't crush a Red Court's mind like a grape if you like.

Offline Belial666

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Re: Two questions: Blocks and the subtle side of Spirit
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2010, 02:21:49 PM »
Your assessment is not entirely correct. There are many examples of magic in fantasy providing social consequences and at least two in the Dresden Files.

The simplest example is intimidation. It is a social attack which you can do either directly with an illusion (to appear more terrifying than you are) or by using magic creatively; Harry uses his "ball of sunshine" spell not as a direct attack on Molly but as an intimidation to test her focus under pressure.

A second, more complicated example is to apply an illusion on somebody else. You can make them look different and, if made to look somehow repulsive, you can divest them of their social advantages both because their contacts and resources won't recognise them and because they'll be, well, repulsive. Making someone's clothes look soiled, making them look old and ill or applying to them a certain repulsive odor or weird sounds when they move is certainly a possibility. A certain evil witch does that to Harry's brother and Harry, failing to recognize Thomas, ends up attacking him.

A third example is a social veil; instead of making them invisible, make their actions and words seem insignificant; when they try to influence others socially, said others will ignore them. When they try to use their contacts, their contacts will overlook them. When they try to speak their mind, their words will be ignored. Bonus points if instead of making all their attempts blocked, make only their attempts regarding a specific subject seem overboard or unreasonable. And then you use your own social skills to convince everybody else they are grief-stricken, insane, full of rage or whatever and that they should be locked up.

Last but not least, there is nothing more embarassing than making someone's clothes invisible in public... while also having the illusion apply subtle faults to their physique. :)

Offline Enokh

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Re: Two questions: Blocks and the subtle side of Spirit
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2010, 06:02:45 PM »
Thanks for your replies and ideas! I particularly like the idea of

Do you think that the Laws could be bypassed for mental attacks if you created an illusion of a real attack -- say, a phantasmal lance of fire that deals mental stress, which is defended against by the targets Discipline -- or maybe Alertness? Or would this be more on the Maneuver side of things, applying a Shaken or Caught Off Guard aspect for the "Holy crap that fire's hitting me in the -- no, wait. Nothing happened?" effect?

Offline Belial666

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Re: Two questions: Blocks and the subtle side of Spirit
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2010, 06:11:54 PM »
Intimidation is normally social attack but if you use it for physical or psychological torture, it can be mental.

I am not sure if indirect mental harm is violation of the Law. The Law says "you shall not invade the mind of another". Technically, you aren't invading it, even with a very realistic sensory illusion (glamor). If on the other hand you are using a mental illusion (phantasm), you ARE invading the target's mind

Offline Enokh

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Re: Two questions: Blocks and the subtle side of Spirit
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2010, 06:19:12 PM »
Sorry -- me saying Phantasm was a complete misuse of the word on my part -- absolutely meant a more Glamor type effect.

I suppose at this point we're getting into the realm of ST-opinion as far as what tracks illusions can attack, and if it violates a Law.

Thanks again for everyone's help, and if there are more ideas I wouldn't complain at all about them being tossed my way!

Offline ironchicken

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Re: Two questions: Blocks and the subtle side of Spirit
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2010, 09:01:39 PM »
Subtle spirit is the real of light and shadow and other subtle manipulations, just avoid the force blast, lifting and shields. I am going earth, air and subtle spirit for my caster.

Thoughts...
Create light
Dazzle
Blur (defence option)
Veils (of course)
Lockpicks
Strobe lights
Block light (darkness spell)
caress (someone just touched me aspect... good in the dark or to get someone slapped)

Offline Enokh

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Re: Two questions: Blocks and the subtle side of Spirit
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2010, 09:43:07 PM »
Hah! I'm doing the same combination of Elements!

I'm definitely seeing a large amount of Maneuver capability for Spirit. Might just have to end up using Earth for lightning bolts/whatever and spend fate points, when I just NEED to attack someone.

Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: Two questions: Blocks and the subtle side of Spirit
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2010, 06:34:51 AM »
Your assessment is not entirely correct. There are many examples of magic in fantasy providing social consequences and at least two in the Dresden Files.

I completely disagree.

The simplest example is intimidation. It is a social attack which you can do either directly with an illusion (to appear more terrifying than you are) or by using magic creatively; Harry uses his "ball of sunshine" spell not as a direct attack on Molly but as an intimidation to test her focus under pressure.

That's using a Spell for a Maneuver followed by a mundane Intimidation roll. It would've been useless without his actual skill at Intimidation (one of his near-pinnacle skills).

A second, more complicated example is to apply an illusion on somebody else. You can make them look different and, if made to look somehow repulsive, you can divest them of their social advantages both because their contacts and resources won't recognise them and because they'll be, well, repulsive. Making someone's clothes look soiled, making them look old and ill or applying to them a certain repulsive odor or weird sounds when they move is certainly a possibility. A certain evil witch does that to Harry's brother and Harry, failing to recognize Thomas, ends up attacking him.

Sounds like a Curse placing unfortunate Aspects on the victim (always very doable)...not a Social Attack per se.

A third example is a social veil; instead of making them invisible, make their actions and words seem insignificant; when they try to influence others socially, said others will ignore them. When they try to use their contacts, their contacts will overlook them. When they try to speak their mind, their words will be ignored. Bonus points if instead of making all their attempts blocked, make only their attempts regarding a specific subject seem overboard or unreasonable. And then you use your own social skills to convince everybody else they are grief-stricken, insane, full of rage or whatever and that they should be locked up.

That's still just a Veil, not an actual direct Social Attack.