High Specialisations from Refinement

[zcthu3]

Hi all,

This probably won't be an issue in most games, but how are people dealing with high levels of Specialisation from Refinement?

In the rules it states that you can't have a +3 in one element until you have +1 and +2 in two others i.e. if you have +3 Fire, you need to have +2 Air and +1 Spirit (or water, or earth, but you get the idea). In other words, you need to form a tower. What happens when you have enough Refinements to boost your Specialisations above +5?

For example, a power wizard has the following power bonuses: Fire +5, Earth +4, Air +3, Water +2, Spirit +1.

They take another level of Refinement, and get two more specialisations, but there are no more elements to take at +1. Does that mean, the wizard can increase Spirit to +2 and Water to +3 making their power specialisations:

Fire +5, Earth +4, Air +3, Water +3, Spirit +2

It they then take another level of Refinement to boost their power could it then go to: Fire +5, Earth +4, Air +4, Water +3, Spirit +3?

[Archmage_Cowl]

well specializations can cross over between control and power so a wizard could theoretically get 10 in a specialization, though i dont know if they would ever really go that high. But on the very, very, VERY off chance that one got that high i would probably let them take a refinement that boosted the base they could have to 2 (similar to how skills can start defaulting higher if you get a really high cap) and then 3 and then 4 and ever higher. Though i'm still not entirerly sure how a mortal caster (or even most immortal ones) would get that high.

[wyvern]

Well, the first thing to notice is that the skill stack applies to, for example, all evocation specialization bonuses.  So, even with the default 5 elements, you could end up with something like the following:
+10 fire control, +9 fire power, +8 earth control, +7 earth power, +6 spirit control, +5 spirit power, +4 water control, +3 water power, +2 air control, +1 air power.

If that's still not enough room, start inventing new categories - maybe you've got +11 to power with kemmlerian necromancy evocations, or something.

[zcthu3]

Thanks, I had missed that it could be Control or Power. In this instance this character is beyond those limits as well (25 Refinement Specialisations will do that)... it is actually a plot device level character, but I wanted to see how DFRPG worked at really high levels as I am thinking of converting across my Armageddon: The End Times game which has some really powerful PCs...

[Archmage_Cowl]

Thanks, I had missed that it could be Control or Power. In this instance this character is beyond those limits as well (25 Refinement Specialisations will do that)... it is actually a plot device level character, but I wanted to see how DFRPG worked at really high levels as I am thinking of converting across my Armageddon: The End Times game which has some really powerful PCs...

Well if they are plot device then you could just rule they dont have to follow the tower. That could work fine.

[Kasharin Manichea]

Also, remember that you can't have a specialization bonus higher than your lore skill. So with a lore at superb (+5) the highest specialization that you can get is +5.

[KOFFEYKID]

yeah, its probably never going to be an issue. to have a +5 in Power and Control for a single element, you would need 15 refinements. Thats allot of refinements, and remember that your characters can have focus items too.

[Belial666]

[-3] Evocation (spirit Specialization), [-3] Thaumaturgy (foci specialization) [-2] Sponsored Magic (Hellfire), [-1] The Sight, [-8] Refinement 8x, Soulgaze, Wizard Constitution, [-2] IoP
Discipline +6, Conviction +6, Lore +5
Spirit Control +5, Spirit Power +4, Fire Control +3, Fire Power +2, Air Control +1
Robes of the Archwizard:  plus 1 refinement, My Will is My Shield (use conviction for social/physical defense), is offensive spirit control focus +5, armor 3
Staff of the Archwizard:  plus 1 refinement, By the Power of Will (use conviction for attacks with the staff), is offensive spirit power focus +5, weapon 3

So, you are 20 refresh, -19 for all powers/items, and you have:
Fantastic +6 Defense and Attack, armor 3 and weapon 3.
Offensive Spirit Power 16, Offensive Spirit Control 16. You can probably tear down the Empire State building if you blast an 8-zone hole in its foundations using your smallest rote. To be sure, you can use your second rote to add 5 temporary aspects to yourself that can be tagged for destructive purposes then hit the building with a 13-zone megablast at +26 attack. Sure, you'll get two mild consequences and 2 sponsor debt but so what? You just made the USA think there was another 9/11 and there's probably a war coming. You've paid that sponsor debt several times over already.
Defensive Spirit Power 10, Defensive Spirit Control 11. Not too bad. You can probably take direct hits from a tank to your shield but why bother? Pull an 11-shift veil and also catch your enemies by surprise. Who's gonna make a perception roll of 11 anyway?
Ritual Complexity is only 5. However, by just spending your mental stress and two mild consequences and provided that the ritual is destructive, you can add no less than 30 aspects to yourself that you can tag... in one scene of preparation. That's a 65-shift ritual.


So yeah. Blackstaff plus - level wizardry at -19 refresh. Enjoy. If you wanted, you could put 14 more refinements (assuming discipline, lore and conviction of +8 here), to have spirit at +8 control, +7 power, and the staff and mantle giving +8 offensive bonuses -just put the extra specializations to crafting so you can actually fit the +8 bonus to the staff and mantle (foci of that size normally go up to +6 so you need it to increase the limit).

You'd then be able to pull off 24-shift evocations at +24 attack and 15-shift defenses at +16 control. At a refresh of -33, which is Senior Council level according to some. That's more or less the limit of mortal magic unless you pay 6 more refresh to get three Lawbreakers and thus another +3 to all your magic that breaks those laws which puts you at -39 refresh.

[Tsunami]

Sorry to high-jack this thread like this.

[...]you can use your second rote to add 5 temporary aspects to yourself that can be tagged[...]

Since when is it possible to create more than one Aspect with a single maneuver ?
I've seen that way of handling it several times on the forums now, and IMO it's not in line with the rules.

[MijRai]

Sorry to high-jack this thread like this.
Since when is it possible to create more than one Aspect with a single maneuver ?
I've seen that way of handling it several times on the forums now, and IMO it's not in line with the rules.

In Your Story, it says that you have to pay 3 shifts for every manuever it attaches, and an extra one for duration for each aspect given. So, you could have a spell that freezes the floor called Slippery for 8 shifts of effect, that gives it 6 exchanges of power (the original exchange, and then five shifts for the longer duration). On the other hand, with that same bit of 8 shifts, you can use a spell that brings a thundercloud over the zone that gives Conductive and Tempestuous Winds as the aspects, for 3 each, and a single shift of power to each on the increase duration to 2 exchanges. 

[JosephKell]

In Your Story, it says that you have to pay 3 shifts for every manuever it attaches, and an extra one for duration for each aspect given. So, you could have a spell that freezes the floor called Slippery for 8 shifts of effect, that gives it 6 exchanges of power (the original exchange, and then five shifts for the longer duration). On the other hand, with that same bit of 8 shifts, you can use a spell that brings a thundercloud over the zone that gives Conductive and Tempestuous Winds as the aspects, for 3 each, and a single shift of power to each on the increase duration to 2 exchanges. 

My book says "By default, pulling off most maneuvers requires 3 shifts of power, but if the target has appropriate resisting skill rated higher than Good (+3), that skill total determines the number of shifts."

So if you want your "Slippery Floor" to effect a guy with Superb Athletics, it is 5 shifts for that guy (in order to try to compel him to fall on his butt).  However "Slippery Floor" might be better handled as a Block?

[Tsunami]

In Your Story, it says that you have to pay 3 shifts for every manuever it attaches, and an extra one for duration for each aspect given. So, you could have a spell that freezes the floor called Slippery for 8 shifts of effect, that gives it 6 exchanges of power (the original exchange, and then five shifts for the longer duration). On the other hand, with that same bit of 8 shifts, you can use a spell that brings a thundercloud over the zone that gives Conductive and Tempestuous Winds as the aspects, for 3 each, and a single shift of power to each on the increase duration to 2 exchanges. 

Hmm... i don't see that the RAW are to be interpreted like that.
It says that a maneuver places or removes "a temporary Aspect" not one or more...
And then it says that a maneuver requires 3 or more shifts...
No word about more aspects for more shifts of power. I'd say it would explicitly mentioned if that was possible.

[Belial666]

Except that you aren't using the maneuer on a creature so it doesn't matter what defenses the creature has. If someone shoots the lights to apply the aspect "total darkness" on a scene, it doesn't matter what defenses anybody has in it; 4 shifts in your guns roll and you get the sticky aspect (it has to be sticky since it doesn't make sense to be temporary)
Ditto for putting fire on the room (apply "On Fire" aspect) or freezing the floor.

The above is for scene spects. Another way you can get an advantage is a navel-gazing maneuer; if you make a maneuer to apply "braced shotgun" or "in my sights", you also don't need to get more than 3 shifts (4 for sticky, if it makes sense) because you are not going to oppose your own maneuer. And if you have an effective guns of 6, you can place both aspects at the same time (both brace and aim) and then, on the second exchange, tag both for a +4 to your attack roll.

The "Invoke Power" rote is the same thing; you are invoking aspects on yourself which you could then tag to blast somebody else without them being able to defend. A 16-shift rote could apply 4-5 such aspects on you - which you then tag for a +8 to +10 on your next roll.

[finnmckool]

So what if you're a channeler? Can you stack refinements all the live long day then, if you only specialize in one element or "mancy"? (specifically one of my players is a kinetomancer)

[JosephKell]

The above is for scene spects. Another way you can get an advantage is a navel-gazing maneuer; if you make a maneuer to apply "braced shotgun" or "in my sights", you also don't need to get more than 3 shifts (4 for sticky, if it makes sense) because you are not going to oppose your own maneuer. And if you have an effective guns of 6, you can place both aspects at the same time (both brace and aim) and then, on the second exchange, tag both for a +4 to your attack roll.

Aiming isn't a navel gazing maneuver.  It is opposed by the target's Dodging (Athletics by default).  But if the target is unaware of this aiming (surprised), it benefits from Ambush (see Stealth) which defaults their skill to Mediocre (so a maneuver would again default to whatever the GM feels is the difficulty).

I don't see anything about placing two separate maneuver aspects at the same time (with the same exchange action).  Please provide citation for those of us that don't have your eyes (sometimes things are "out of place" like the Prolonging Spells bit was several pages past the part about blocks and maneuvers).

Finnmckool: You can't take Refinements for specialization bonuses.  Channelers are restricted to the much more economical Foci.