Real heavy weapons/armor?

[ballplayer72]

Well, you can only go up to -2 for Lawbreaker: First. And if you're a submerged wizard who already has that Lawbreaker maxed, it just gives you a +2 to any spells intended to kill. So, Conviction 5, focus +2, specialization +1 gives 8 minimum power, Discipline 5, focus +2, Lawbreaker +2 gives 9 control.

So our Lawbreaking Submerged wizard is doing 8-shift killing spells at +9 attack, dealing 14 shifts of damage on someone with good defense, 17 shifts of damage on something that can't dodge or has mediocre dodge. That's cleaving-a-tank-in-two or ripping-off-the-vault-door kinda blast if focused on a single target. Or it can be pancake-the-building kinda blast if focused on two-three zones.

And the scary thing? This is a 1-stress spell for the wizard who can have it as a Rote. He can do it 4 times per combat without consequences.

thats just silly.   thats wayy wayy to much umph to be practical in game terms (though i have a few friends who would positively orgasm at the thought of how easy it would be to cause widespread mayhem) unless you just wanna break stuff . (which can certainly be fun )



The real problem with the Gau guy is that he doen'st have to take consequences or be tired after.  Just has to reload.  And the fact that its so ridonkulously powerful and he can stand around for as long as he has bullets just kinda.... makes it too easy. just imo

[Belial666]

Yep. Magic is badass. Harry Dresden has just a bit lower power than that when he starts out only because he's not fully focused on blasting; he has some potion-making and divinations oomph too and doesn't have full Lawbreaker. But we're talking only about 2-3 less stress or so, out of 14.


Problem with the GAU guy is that he's gonna be doing only half the damage of the blaster wizard and he would also lack the wizard's Thaumaturgy abilities. Besides, would the wizard actually need to use his rote more than 4 times in a scene? And if he's facing a sea of enemies, he could just go Nova, spend two mild consequences and take some backlash to flatten all enemies in 5 zones with a megablast. Harry Dresden kind of did that in book 3 and fully did that in book 11.

[ballplayer72]

Yep. Magic is badass. Harry Dresden has just a bit lower power than that when he starts out only because he's not fully focused on blasting; he has some potion-making and divinations oomph too and doesn't have full Lawbreaker. But we're talking only about 2-3 less stress or so, out of 14.


Problem with the GAU guy is that he's gonna be doing only half the damage of the blaster wizard and he would also lack the wizard's Thaumaturgy abilities. Besides, would the wizard actually need to use his rote more than 4 times in a scene? And if he's facing a sea of enemies, he could just go Nova, spend two mild consequences and take some backlash to flatten all enemies in 5 zones with a megablast. Harry Dresden kind of did that in book 3 and fully did that in book 11.

harry also has a significantly higher refresh level in number 11 AND in 3 he's gone through a major plot point (susan getting gaked, thomas' betrayal.  thinking he's about to get ate) BEFORE he gets to drop that.  It also straight kills him to do it.  Mike has to perform CPR and probably some faith magic to bring his ass back to life.     It almost qualifies as a death curse

[Belial666]

Yes, but he was already very tired in 3 before attempting it and a little bit beat up; that's why the spell nearly killed him. A fresh wizard who is prepared to Lawbreak your ass into oblivion is really, really scary.

[Bubba Amon Hotep]

Yes, but he was already very tired in 3 before attempting it and a little bit beat up; that's why the spell nearly killed him. A fresh wizard who is prepared to Lawbreak your ass into oblivion is really, really scary.

And that is why Wardens kill sorcerers (read not wizards yet) that start showing the signs of people prepared and willing to "lawbreak your ass into ovlivion".  Helps me sleep at night knowing that only well adjusted wizards get fully trained.  And the crazy psychos get an early grave and headless corpse.

Of course I do wake up thinking about the "couple" ( read not hordes ) of dark wizards running around in the shadows.  But I can go back to sleep easy enough when I remember that if they do ANYTHING sizable, they show up on the radar and get taken down.

[Doc Nova]

Wow!  That is an incredibly potent character.  Certainly fun to banter about, excellent from the standpoint of "No, no, no" for the power-level in my game...but I also wonder about the "invincibility" of the character.  So far, I have seen no one mention anything about socially embarassing the character to the point of being taken out.  Shamed, taunted, and the like.  There's a massive vulnerability...at least as I read it, on the character that could (and should) be exploited at every possible moment.  Aside from the logistics of not being able to travel most places, you have the simple and direct social attacks to slap aspects like "Egg on the Face" and the like.  Surely, I could see the character getting angry at such antics and opening fire, at which point folks would be well within reason to declare "Enraged" on the character, and then compel it to screw with aiming (and, therefore, hitting) not to mention someone like this would certainly draw the attention of the Blackstaff

(click to show/hide)

and, as we saw in Changes, unless you're also utterly immune to magic, there's not much that can stop that dude from snuffing your candle

.

Very interesting exercise in "what if", in my opinion, however.  And, hey, if your group goes for that kind of game, just don't blow up the Earth...for in the immortal words of the Tick..."That's where I keep all my stuff!"

[tymire]

Just remember that being immune to magic doesn't mean you cannot be hurt or killed from the effects of magic.  You might not be able to be blasted, but someone could move all the air around you (suffocate), veils to dictate your actions, changing the environment itself (instant sand traps), etc... There are MANY different ways that magic could be used that can have some seriously negative consequences if you take the time to be a bit creative.  Like said would be a great fun to roleplay, but after you get into 1-2 fights decked out the rumor mill will start and everyone (that takes time) will know that they need a work around. 

[Belial666]

And that is why the character isn't overpowered. Sure, she has tremendous melee combat abilities and is as tough as a tank. But she sucks in social conflict, mental conflict and non-combat skills.

[Barrington]

I think we need to remember that the character being accused of being overpowered is the product of many, many sessions of gameplay. Seriously, look at the damn refresh point cost of that thing. This is the product of a lot of character development and player work. By then, I think the other characters and the game itself would have advanced enough to make her fit right in. Just a tip, though. . .if you want her to use a full-sized GAU, I'd up her height. Those things are about twenty feet long. Either that, or chop down the barrels to be about four or five feet long.

---

YOU ARE SO SMALL! IS FUNNY TO ME!

[theDwarf]

If all you have is a hammer:
Imagine a hammer with a handle two inches thick and a bit over three feet long, with a head two feet wide and one foot thick. It is a large hammer, yes? Were it made from iron, it would weigh about half a ton. Were it made from tungsten alloy, a material nearly three times heavier and several times tougher than steel, it would weigh about a ton and a half... and superstrong faeries like Ogres and Trolls would have no problems touching it. Being hit by it would be as bad as being run over by a mack truck going fifty.
What kind of weapon rating would you give that?

None.

The handle is 2 inches thick and 3' long.
<snap>

For an article I wrote I did a break test on an 8' pine 2x4 with good grain and it held (IIRC) 500+ pounds of people at the center but sheared when we bounced slightly.  Given that test I know that a pine handle 3' long would tend to shear if the weight was greater than say 600 pounds were at one end.  The strongest wood I know would shear at around 2000 pounds of weight and we haven't even talked about impact yet!  Hickory is much stronger than pine yet it is not uncommon break hickory handles on even a 6 pound sledge if the handle strikes rather than the maul or axe head.  So, you are talking about 1000#-3000# hammer head which would mean that a typical hickory handle would be more like 25"+ diameter handle to handle the load properly.

Toon physics do not aid in suspension of disbelief.

[Belial666]

The handle is also made of the same space-age metal alloy. Iron could hold, but I am not sure. But the handle also being just as dense actually improves balance by distributing the weight a bit more evenly.

[theDwarf]

Its pretty tough to swing around a weapon that weighs a significant fraction of your mass.   I'd say over half of your weight and swinging that thing would send you flying off balance.

Half???

Heck, most zweihanders ran only 4-7 pounds in weight (ceremonial ones up to 16 pounds).
Battle axes tend to weigh under 6 pounds and even the Danish axes tended to weigh only 2-4 pounds.

You can purchase a Briar Axe from Lowes ... weight 4.6 pounds (36" handle).  I could see having a slightly heavier blade and it still being wieldable, but not too much heavier or the user would not be able to make an attack per second +/- (faster if striking for speed to distract, hook, or accomplish other such result).


There is a HUGE difference between being able to pick something up, being able to toss it a small distance, and being able wield it as a weapon and not get overbalanced by it.

Remember, E=MC^2 so once the mass is moving any appreciable speed it starts throwing you rather than you diverting its direction.

[theDwarf]

The handle is also made of the same space-age metal alloy. Iron could hold, but I am not sure. But the handle also being just as dense actually improves balance by distributing the weight a bit more evenly.

Unobtanium I am guessing?

Problem is 2" diameter is squat for strength when trying to use it as a handle for a 1-2 ton weight ...

... plus the acceleration and the impact.

Ludicrous.


here is why:
Iron has a shear modulus of 82 GPa, Tungsten 161 GPa.
Basically that means if iron can't handle a 500# load then Tungsten won't handle a 1000# load.

Hickory runs 14.8MPa for shear or roughly 0.0146GPa IIRC.  That would put tungsten at maybe x10,000 of Hickory which means it SHOUL handle the shear, but Hickory has a MOE of 15.583 GPa as well although Tungsten is probably only running at 411 GPa which puts Tungsten at only 30x more resistant than Hickory and thus the 1000#-3000# head severely questionable compared to a 3#-6# sledge with a 2" diam hickory handle (aka, it may handle the shear, but there are other stresses involved as well).


Dresden is able to pull off what he does by obeying the laws of physics.  These include things like shear strength and exploiting the weakest (or least protected) points.

[ballplayer72]

Half???

Heck, most zweihanders ran only 4-7 pounds in weight (ceremonial ones up to 16 pounds).
Battle axes tend to weigh under 6 pounds and even the Danish axes tended to weigh only 2-4 pounds.

You can purchase a Briar Axe from Lowes ... weight 4.6 pounds (36" handle).  I could see having a slightly heavier blade and it still being wieldable, but not too much heavier or the user would not be able to make an attack per second +/- (faster if striking for speed to distract, hook, or accomplish other such result).


There is a HUGE difference between being able to pick something up, being able to toss it a small distance, and being able wield it as a weapon and not get overbalanced by it.

Remember, E=MC^2 so once the mass is moving any appreciable speed it starts throwing you rather than you diverting its direction.

Remember not human with hulking size and mythic strength.      Humans aren't strong enough to easily tear cars in half.  This troll thing can.  So can hammer girl.       The strength gives them an edge (compared to humans) in controlling and changing their momentum.  It'd still be easy to throw yourself around though.
Also you can always use the ole GM excuse *waggles fingers* "its magic"

[tymire]

Actually no superstrength doesn't allow you to change momentum or give you any extra leverage or anthing like that. 

See the boot to the head of bampire while in Henry's car.  If it allowed this it would not have worked.

Though if she didn't have that super heavy armor would be cool because you could litterly hammer throw yourself (like Thor) over tall buildings, lol.  And problem with super heavy armor also is that if you move at all you would have to make a balance check.  Sure the armor itself is heavy, however you don't have the mass to shift it's weight (need LOTS and LOTS of practice).  Even if with that would also give the character a tag named "TIMBER" or the "BIGGER THEY ARE THE HARDER THEY FALL" where folks could take advantage of that.

Hmm best way to get around that by making the armor more powerfull item of power.  Don't think a +0 human guise should work on something that is supposed to be 1" thick, armor 5, and wieghing 2 tons.....  Also -1 refresh for a weapon 5 and armor 5 is well quite cheezy, esp as written when they have true strike, human guise, and 1/2 immunity to magic.  Probably would also say since this stuff is getting modified need to have marked by power to signify "something" claiming you, as there is nothing like a growing item of power shown anywhere else in the game that I am aware of.

PS: Where did the weakess against silver come from?  Definately isn't an angel thing. 

PPS:  Weapon-fu only works against melee attacks, so still rolling athletics for dodging range ones.