Confusion on the 'were' section

[Archangel62]

Some friends are looking at doing a Dresden Files game in the future and I'm toying with the idea of a crime fighting weregorilla. The problem I have is this, I was looking at the example for the werewolf, the wolf form takes up 6 refresh, and then 1 for the shifting ability, 1 for the ability to talk to wolves, and you get one refresh back, net being 7. Does this mean that I couldn't play a werewolf like the alphas (and not have any mortal stunts) until a chest deep power level game or did I read things wrong? I only ask because it seems odd when looking at things of that same power level like the wizard, it seems a bit low so I would like clarification if anyone can help.

[KOFFEYKID]

Well, wizards are going to, usually, be able to stomp anything given time. However the wolves have several advantages a wizard doesn't, namely that they aren't hindered by laws of magic, and can kill mortals just fine. A few other things, like if they are fighting something immune to magic, would even the score. Wizards, still, are likely to be more powerful, yes, but only if the wizard is a strong Evocator, a thaumaturgist specialist is not going to stack up in combat with one of the Alphas. You could adjust the template by removing the Pac Instincts power, since most likely you will never get a chance to use it.

A were is going to outstrip a wizard in a prolonged fight, where a wizard is going to outstrip the were in a short fight, this is due to the mechanics of stress and casting. A wizard pretty much only gets to cast 5 spells before racking up lasting consequences, maybe 6 if the wizard has a superb (+5) conviction.

[Deadmanwalking]

From my sample character thread:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,17704.0.html

Here's a Wizard and a werewolf, and why a werewolf can be just as scary.

Name: Elizabeth Anne Winthrop

Aspects:
High Concept: Young Untried Wizard
Trouble: More Bravery Than Sense
Other:
Youthful Exuberance
Magical Prodigy
Carlos Ramirez’s Ex-Girlfriend
Loyal To A Fault
Subtle And Quick To Anger

Skills:

Superb: Conviction,
Great: Discipline, Lore
Good: Rapport, Scholarship
Fair: Alertness, Athletics, Resources,
Average: Contacting, Deceit, Endurance, Presence, Weapons,

Powers:

Evocation [–3]
Thaumaturgy [–3]
The Sight [–1]
Soulgaze [+0]
Wizard’s Constitution [+0]

Total Refresh: 1

Specializations:

Evocation: Elements (Air, Earth, Spirit); Control (Earth +1)
Thaumaturgy: Complexity (Divination+1);

Focus Items:
Shield Ring [+1 Defensive Control and Power with Earth]
Wand [+1 Offensive Control and Power with Earth]

Rotes:

Gravity Warp (Block: 6 or Armor: 3, requires Ring)
Lightning Bolt (Weapon: 6 Attack. Requires Wand.)
Moving Earth (6 Shift Maneuver against area or opponent. Requires Wand.)
Earth Tremor (Weapon: 4 Attack, targets an entire zone. Defended against with Might. Requires Wand.)

Stress:

Mental: OOOO (+1 Minor Mental Consequences)
Physical: OOO
Social: OOO
Armor: 3, with magic.

So, a 6 shift defense with magic (2 shift without it), and a Weapon: 6, 6 shift offense. Plus 3 shift social stuff, and a 4 shift Mental Defense. Plus Fair Alertness and thus Initiative.

Name: Erin Carter

Aspects:
High Concept: Former Alpha
Trouble: Just Wants A Normal Life, But Can Never Have It
Other:
The Best of Intentions
What do you do with a Liberal Arts Degree?
I’ve Killed And Eaten Worse Than You
Can’t Resist A Cry For Help
Animal Magnetism

Skills:

Human:

Great: Deceit, Rapport,
Good: Discipline, Empathy, Presence,
Fair: Alertness, Athletics, Lore, Scholarship,
Average: Contacts, Conviction, Endurance, Fists, Stealth,

Wolf:

Superb: Athletics, Fists,
Great: Alertness, Stealth,
Good: Endurance, Discipline,
Fair: Lore, Scholarship,
Average: Conviction, Presence,

Stunts:
Sex Appeal (Rapport)

Powers:
Echoes of the Beast [-1]
Beast Change [-1]

Human Form [+1], affecting:
Claws [-1]
Inhuman Strength [-2]
Inhuman Speed [-2]

Total Refresh: 1


Stress:

Mental: OOO
Physical: OOO/OOOO
Social: OOOO/OOO
Armor: None, usually.

The werewolf meanwhile, also has a 6 shift defense (2 shifts in human form, much less common than the wizard not having magic), a 5 shift attack at Weapo: 4 that can be used all day long. 4 shift Social stuff (and more of it), 3 shift Mental Defense, and Legendary Initiative with Superb Alertness for other purposes.


How exactly are those two not pretty close to on-par?

[Deadmanwalking]

And on a different note, were-creatures often cost very different amounts. A Were-Gorilla is actually likely to be pretty cheap:

Ecchoes of the Beast [-1]
Beast Change [-1]

Human Form [+1] effecting
Inhuman Strength [-2]

Total minimum of -3. Maybe add Inhuman Toughness if you like or Defend My Tribe from Moe's stats in OW, and you have yourself a gorilla.

[Archangel62]

And on a different note, were-creatures often cost very different amounts. A Were-Gorilla is actually likely to be pretty cheap:

Ecchoes of the Beast [-1]
Beast Change [-1]

Human Form [+1] effecting
Inhuman Strength [-2]

Total minimum of -3. Maybe add Inhuman Toughness if you like or Defend My Tribe from Moe's stats in OW, and you have yourself a gorilla.

More or less my plan, I was more making sure I hadn't missed something, and I thank you (you being everyone who responded) for helping me and showing me that the way I read it was accurate. I just wanted to make sure I understood it correctly.

[Thrythlind]

to put things in another light...Dresden remarks fairly regularly that wizards are awesome given time to prepare

however, in the case of nasty monsters that he wasn't expecting...he usually prefers to run

for example, in the Blood Rites case, if even just Billy was around when the three Black Courts jumped Harry, Inari, Thomas and Lara, then the black courts would have been facing a much, much harder fight than just Dresden and Lara burdened by an injured Thomas and untried Inari, with Dresden not loaded for undead bear

[ballplayer72]

to put things in another light...Dresden remarks fairly regularly that wizards are awesome given time to prepare

however, in the case of nasty monsters that he wasn't expecting...he usually prefers to run

for example, in the Blood Rites case, if even just Billy was around when the three Black Courts jumped Harry, Inari, Thomas and Lara, then the black courts would have been facing a much, much harder fight than just Dresden and Lara burdened by an injured Thomas and untried Inari, with Dresden not loaded for undead bear

perhaps mechanically in the DFRpg, but not necessarily in the books.  BC vamps are STRONG and FAST, much more than billy and the alphas.   The biggest vamp I think they'd be able to get at would've been the rc vamp twins from GP.   Thats about as hatted up as is good for them.  Anything tougher than that and theyre gonna get slaughtered.  Quickly.   Unless they doused themselves in garlic and water before the fight (which is an EPIC IDEA! I just thought of.  THink about it.  Wolves have lots and lots of fur.   Soak them in garlic before the fight and simple CONTACT satisfies the BC vamp catch.   You could take out a whole scourge if you caught them napping with a little support.

[CMEast]

[+3] Catch - Garlic-flavoured were-wolf hugs

[TheMouse]

A "young, untried wizard," has Conviction, Lore, and Discipline all at +4 or higher? That seems a little... robust to me.

[Thrythlind]

perhaps mechanically in the DFRpg, but not necessarily in the books.  BC vamps are STRONG and FAST, much more than billy and the alphas.   The biggest vamp I think they'd be able to get at would've been the rc vamp twins from GP.   Thats about as hatted up as is good for them.  Anything tougher than that and theyre gonna get slaughtered.  Quickly.   Unless they doused themselves in garlic and water before the fight (which is an EPIC IDEA! I just thought of.  THink about it.  Wolves have lots and lots of fur.   Soak them in garlic before the fight and simple CONTACT satisfies the BC vamp catch.   You could take out a whole scourge if you caught them napping with a little support.

I would have thought the same until he took them with him into a frigging Faerie war and they came out without serious injury.  They have the same inhuman speed and strength as most vamps too...don't quite have supernatural, but eh.

Anyway, Harry and the Whites won that 3 on 2 + incapacitated/untried adds, so adding Billy in would have pushed the tide over a bit...if it was Billy and a handful of Alphas, would have been vampire pate, I believe

[Nomad]

You also should remember that characters grow. A magical were creature can start with just

-Ecchoes of the Beast [-1]
-Beast Change [-1]

to show his/her inexperience and raw magic and then gain more like animal speech / str / spd / toughness and so on. Ultimately it depends on your groups' and story teller's playstyle.

[Deadmanwalking]

A "young, untried wizard," has Conviction, Lore, and Discipline all at +4 or higher? That seems a little... robust to me.

Check out the actual thread, she's very powerful, but only 23 and had a mentor who thought her attitude was not appropriate for a Wizard, and in fact just graduated her from apprentice.

[Archangel62]

One thing I will admit, and this is just me wondering, I was a bit curious as to why you didn't get a discount for having the powers locked away in a form. Was it because it could be called out at any time? I only ask because it seems off in terms of mileage (or is the human form considered the discount?)

[Deadmanwalking]

One thing I will admit, and this is just me wondering, I was a bit curious as to why you didn't get a discount for having the powers locked away in a form. Was it because it could be called out at any time? I only ask because it seems off in terms of mileage (or is the human form considered the discount?)

Uh...is this directed at me?

Either way, that's exactly what Human Form is. If you can use your powers without huge obvious shapeshifting, you have Human Guise, if you need to turn into a huge monster (or a tiger) to access them, then you take Human Form...that's what Human Form does.

[Archangel62]

Uh...is this directed at me?

Either way, that's exactly what Human Form is. If you can use your powers without huge obvious shapeshifting, you have Human Guise, if you need to turn into a huge monster (or a tiger) to access them, then you take Human Form...that's what Human Form does.

Oh, no, not directed at you, I just had already started the thread and when the thought crossed my mind I figured I'd mention it here too. I know what powers you take and all that.