Thaumaturgy questions

[greycouncilmember]

I'm finding myself incredibly excited about the DFRPG system!  I have a few questions related to Thaumaturgy that I'm hoping somebody can help me with. 

I've been thinking about a good luck spell that just adds a temporary aspect for a good long duration like maybe a couple hours or even a day.  What would the cost be to add that aspect to a willing person?  Would it be 1 plus the aspect cost of 0 (temporary aspect) plus the duration or would the base have to beat the target skill even if they are willing? 

Is there a general rule of thumb for duration?  is it fair for a base thaumaturgy spell to last an hour if there is an aspect involved? 

Thanks in advance! 

[Myrddhin]

Well, that's actually the perfect inverse of an example they give on pg. 296 in YS, the mild entropy curse, so it stands to reason that you could just switch out the aspect Bad Luck for your desired Good Luck and viola.
It would probably look something like this:

Good Luck Blessing
Type: Thaumaturgy, transformation
Complexity: Varies; 4 - 6 shifts, depending on duration and a non-resisting subject
Duration: A few hours
Effect: Applies the aspect Good Luck on the subject, canceling out the effects of any kind of Bad Luck aspect.

[Tush Hog]

Aspects placed on people last for one scene (15-30 minutes or so). To make that aspect last longer, you need to up the complexity of the spell by one for each level. So if you want the aspect to hang around for a few hours up the complexity by about three - all day? Bump it by 5.

As far as cost it depends on whether you want the aspect to have one free tag or more. If you wanted a basic good luck aspect that would last for a few hours and get someone one free tag have a complexity of about 6. Three shifts (normal cost for a spell maneuver) and three extra shifts for duration. After that first tag, it would have to be invoked at the cost of one fate point.

Want to have more than one tag? Buy the the maneuver multiple times. So a complexity of 9 would get you two tags on an aspect that would stick around for a few hours.

[crusher_bob]

You'd have to pay for the extra duration on each of the additional aspects.  So it would be complexity 12 (6 x 2) to get two long duration aspects.  And you might need an extra shift in each of those aspects to make them sticky, as well.

[Rel Fexive]

Here's a question from me: what sort of thaumaturgy could you use to help with gambling?

So far I've got: divination to find out the winner of a race before it even starts; bad luck or a temporarily crippling 'injury' cast on a racer, whether they be a driver, dog or horse; good or bad luck cast on the players of a card game; a 'potion' rubbed on the hands to mystically mark cards as you handle them; a "see the other side of the cards" spell.

Any other ideas?

[luminos]

To answer the original question, the default complexity for applying a maneuver, resisted or not, is three shifts.  For duration, I'd say it would be fair that the aspect lasts 15-30 minutes after the first tag, but the person that has it can put off tagging it for about a day after it is cast.  For longer lasting aspects, just increase the complexity by one for each increment on the time chart you want to increase the length of the aspect. 

As an aside, divination to learn the future is lawbreaking.

[CMEast]

@Luminos: I think most people agree that it's only travelling back in time, or affecting the past in some way, that breaks the 6th Law as it specifically states that the law prohibits 'swimming against the currents of time'. Plus powers like Cassandra's Tears or 'A Few Seconds Ahead' (OW99) look in to the future without breaking the 6th law.

@Rel Fexive: Speaking of which, a thaumaturgic ritual to temporarily give your character the power 'A Few Seconds Ahead' could be used in casinos effectively. Plus if he has channelling he could use telekinesis to affect slot machines and roulette wheels.

Re-worded for Luminos' benefit - It's only travelling back in time, or affecting the past in some way, that breaks the 6th Law as it specifically states that the law prohibits 'swimming against the currents of time'. Plus powers like Cassandra's Tears or 'A Few Seconds Ahead' (OW99) look in to the future without breaking the 6th law. So most people agree that it's fine to look in to the future

[luminos]

I think "most people" is a meaningless vague term (unless you have a poll or something), and irrelevant to the question of what is correct anyways.

[CMEast]

'Most people' in that I've seen it discussed repeatedly on here and divination of the future isn't ever seen to be an issue. 'Most people' in that many people have created characters that allow them to look in to the future.

'Most people' because the laws of magic are open to interpretation and it's up to the individual group to decide how they want to interpret it, so you can play a game where divination of the future results in a lawbreaker if you want; hence discussing the general consensus instead of laying down my opinion as law.

If you’re looking for a grey area to explore, here’s one: the Sixth Law prohibits swimming against the flow of time. What about swimming with it? It might be entirely kosher to jump forward in time (assuming you can figure out how to do it). But will your local Warden see it that way? And how badly will you want to head back once you get there?

If travelling forward in time can be seen as ok, I'm pretty sure getting a glimpse of future knowledge is ok too.

Divination can take several forms, all basically falling under the general header of “gathering information.” The most common example from Harry’s casefiles is his tracking spell, but there are several other forms that fall within the scope of divination: direct scrying, forecasting and prophecy, telepathy and psychometry, and various other kinds of sensory magic.

I bolded the bits that relate to divination in to the past or future. Hope that helps and that you find it more 'relevant' to what is 'correct', though I really don't think there is only one specific way to interpret any of the laws of magic in my opinion.

Edit - I've also changed the structure of my first post in quotes for you Luminos, whilst keeping the same meaning and pretty much the same words. Just so that yours eyes won't get caught on the words 'most people', allowing you to read the rest of the sentence. Hope that clears things up.

[luminos]

Thank you for the relevent portions of the rules.  That is miles more useful than an unsubstantiated and besides the issue "most people" argument.  Yes, now I can see some amount of agreement with your point.

[Ala Alba]

Thank you for the relevent portions of the rules.  That is miles more useful than an unsubstantiated and besides the issue "most people" argument.  Yes, now I can see some amount of agreement with your point.

There is no need to speculate. It's been stated in Turn Coat(?) that knowing the future in some fashion is something that ALL wizards eventually gain. Now, I'll admit that Luccio might not be an incredibly reliable source under the circumstances, but it's still good enough for me.

[finnmckool]

Being naturally precognitive and actively looking into the future may be a very fine line. I think there was even discussion about this in White Night when Harry and Murph meet Abby. There's also the long explanation about paradox Bob and Harry have about the message the Gatekeeper gives him in "Proven Guilty," where they discuss exactly why this is a law since by knowing the future you may attempt to change it which could cause a paradox, thus endangering reality. Now, placing a bet on a horse you know is going to win probably doesn't violate that law. Maybe...but then is maybe a word you wanna use in conjunction with "avoiding paradoxageddon"?

Plus, I find most arguments on "avoiding violating the laws" to be based on the premise that you'll get to explain and/or prove your position before someone cuts your head off.

[greycouncilmember]

To answer the original question, the default complexity for applying a maneuver, resisted or not, is three shifts.  For duration, I'd say it would be fair that the aspect lasts 15-30 minutes after the first tag, but the person that has it can put off tagging it for about a day after it is cast.  For longer lasting aspects, just increase the complexity by one for each increment on the time chart you want to increase the length of the aspect. 

I'd think a temporary aspect would go away right after it was used.  How can that spell last all day for the default complexity of 3 shifts?  In other words it would cost the default 3 to get the default duration of up to a day? 

Thanks so much everybody!

[luminos]

I'm not actually sure if the default complexity of 3 will make it available for an entire day or not, since the section on thaumaturgy doesn't seem to provide a definitve answer on it (correct me with a page number if I'm wrong) but that was just my best guess.  Even so, I'm not saying the actual aspect will last a day, just that their is a day to activate the aspect when the ritual is finished.  Also, its thaumaturgy, so the effects it creates will tend to be stronger than effects created by other methods.

[CMEast]

I'd think a temporary aspect would go away right after it was used.  How can that spell last all day for the default complexity of 3 shifts?  In other words it would cost the default 3 to get the default duration of up to a day?

A manoeuvre applying a temporary aspect like that is always a minimum of 3 shifts. The spell duration would most likely default to a scene, so the spell would probably end after 15 minutes or until it was tagged. You could call the spell 4 shifts if you want it to be a sticky, in which case it would still last for the 15 minutes, but tagging the aspect wouldn't make it disappear; you could pay a fate point to use the aspect again. Alternatively, you could pay for extra tags (3 shifts each) but this still wouldn't extend the duration of the spell.

To make the spell last for a whole day, you would have to pay additional shifts for each time increment above the original duration (check the reference sheets at the back of the book/pdf). So to make the basic 3 shift aspect last for half an hour, you'd have to pay an additional shift. To make it last the afternoon (8 or 12 hours) it would be an additional 4 shifts and the whole day would cost you 5 extra shifts.

So to make a temporary good luck aspect ritual that lasts for a day, it will cost 3 shifts for the aspect and 5 for duration; that's 8 shifts of complexity in total. You could make it a sticky aspect for an additional shift, so that even once you've used your free tag on the aspect, the spell would continue to run until the end of the day and you could invoke it with fate points just like a normal aspect.

So you could pay 3 shifts for the aspect, 5 shifts for duration, 1 shift to make it sticky (so it sticks around once the free tags have been used) and 6 more shifts for two additional free tags (3 shifts x 2).
This would give you a ritual that would cost 15 shifts of complexity, it would give you a good luck aspect all day and would allow you to tag it three times for free. A handy spell.

Hope that helps.

Edit: And as Luminos has said above, there isn't a default duration for each spell in the book, you just need to go with what seems to make sense. If you aren't sure what the default duration would be then speak to your GM to see what he's happy with and take a look at the time increments table in the book/PDF. Generally I would rule that most aspects last a scene and most wards last a day.