Ethics, Wizards, and the Laws of Magic

[Ophidimancer]

I would also probably add "arrogance/presumption" as a grey area border--if you are aware of the risks to your soul by casting a piece of grey magic, but disregard them willfully, that might push it over into the Lawbreaker zone for me.

This seems unnecessarily harsh to me.  I think you still have to actually commit the crime to suffer the consequences.

Another question:  If you use magic to transform yourself and then kill someone with enhanced strength or claws or something, does that break the 1st Law?

[Deadmanwalking]

This seems unnecessarily harsh to me.  I think you still have to actually commit the crime to suffer the consequences.

Another question:  If you use magic to transform yourself and then kill someone with enhanced strength or claws or something, does that break the 1st Law?

No. Or all the Alphas would have Lawbreaker. Also, allowing Lawbreaker to apply to physical attacks strikes me as a very bad precedent.

[Thrythlind]

I wouldn't call the catch and release issue a Lawbreaker instance...all you've done is remove a force that could have protected the person, you have not caused the death through magic...all you've done is made the point "I could have saved you" which is murder, but it is not harnessing the forces of life to end the life that gives it shape...

[Ophidimancer]

Q: Does it violate the 3rd Law to bargain with a spirit to read someone's mind for you?  Say you get a memory spirit to look in someone's head and bring info to you?

[Tbora]

Q: Does it violate the 3rd Law to bargain with a spirit to read someone's mind for you?  Say you get a memory spirit to look in someone's head and bring info to you?

No, not your magic, simply a deal with a creature of the nevernever.Thats not to say the Warden's wouldn't come to "talk" to you about it, but I don't believe it would stain your soul (thus Lawbreaker) like if you pushed your way into there head yourself.

[wyvern]

Q: Does it violate the 3rd Law to bargain with a spirit to read someone's mind for you?  Say you get a memory spirit to look in someone's head and bring info to you?

Possibly, depending on how you got in contact with that spirit.  See YS285, the end of the section on diabolism, where it states that summoning a creature to act in your stead is just as much a violation as direct magic.  On the other hand, if that spirit is just an NPC who hangs around in a skull in your lab, needing no magic to call up - I'd say that's not lawbreaker material.

(re-posted the following question, since it didn't get any answer previously, and this is definitely the right thread for it to be asked in.)
And, for a slightly different lawbreaker question: Transforming someone else, body or mind, is against the Laws of Magic.  Transforming yourself is not.  But what about giving someone else the ability to transform themselves?  Is giving someone a hexenwulf belt you made a violation of the laws of magic?  What about a potion of turn into a wolf 'till the next dawn (that, presumably, doesn't have the demonic possession drawback of a hexenwulf belt)?

[CMEast]

I would say that if they want to change, they understand the possible repercussions and they take full responsibility then I think it might be ok. I would possibly get some fancy oath drawn up stating that the wizard takes no responsibility or something though.

And even then I can see that it might still be seen as a lawbreaker, depending on the person changing. Perhaps if the magic is passive and the changer activates it.

[Ophidimancer]

See YS285, the end of the section on diabolism, where it states that summoning a creature to act in your stead is just as much a violation as direct magic.  On the other hand, if that spirit is just an NPC who hangs around in a skull in your lab, needing no magic to call up - I'd say that's not lawbreaker material.

What if you summoned it with magic, but didn't bind it to service, just made a deal with it?

[Bruce Coulson]

  But what about giving someone else the ability to transform themselves?  Is giving someone a hexenwulf belt you made a violation of the laws of magic?  What about a potion of turn into a wolf 'till the next dawn (that, presumably, doesn't have the demonic possession drawback of a hexenwulf belt)?

I would say no Lawbreaker.  Free Will; the wizard is giving someone the power to transform, not making them transform.  Nothing stops the person from taking the item and refusing to use it.  Now, giving someone the power to transform so they can kill people for you...that starts sliding into 1st Law territory.

[Ophidimancer]

Q: Is it breaking a Law of Magic to use magic to physically torture someone?  What if you physically torture someone to the point of causing permanent (possibly psychological) trauma?

[CMEast]

I'd say that generally it doesn't break a law so no lawbreaker stunt, however the wardens would come after you anyway as it's a slippery slope and torturers are pretty near the bottom.

You could however, depending on the results of the torture, call it enthralling or transforming another - those would both results in lawbreaker stunts and very messy haircuts from the wardens.