A Psychomancer and his Rotes, Or Breaking the 3rd & 4th... maybe

[Myrddhin]

I'm in the midst of building a psychomancer antagonist, inspired by the big bad in Stephen King's Storm of the Century, but I've hit a bit of a wall: I can't decide whether his rotes, all of which are Spirit (mental) evocations, qualify for the benefits of Lawbreaker and wanted some input. None of them are technically a gross violation, no mind reading or enthrallment, but all rely upon breaching the victim's mind to produce the effect, though it's debatable as "just flavor" on the breaching portion. At odds is really just whether he gets the benefits, and can sling more power around, or not.

The rotes are:
-Two maneuvers to place Can't Think and Petrified by Fear on singular targets as sticky aspects (the former reads as having their thoughts interrupted, and the latter as hallucinations of their worst fear)
-A direct mental stress attack (based on assaulting the victim's mind with their worst memories)
-His ace: Block/grapple to deal mental stress via torture (effectively Crucio)

[Morgan]

All those rotes sound like pretty nasty mind magic to me, and this is for an antagonist right? Go ahead and give him some Lawbreaker powers.

[luminos]

Oh yeah, that is all lawbreaker material. 

[dresdensapper]

touching the mind of another at all is breaking the laws of magic.  save for very few that the white councel looks upon as a "grey area" like when dresden helped murphy after the nightmare got into her head or i belive also an instance with luccio, not sure bout that one though.

[Papa Gruff]

As a simple rule of thumb I'd say that any magic dealing mental stress immediately does qualify for the lawbreaker, as you try to hurt/destroy somebodies mind. That said #2 and #3 will get it for sure. The maneuver crosses the line because a) it stops all thinking, leaving the victim "stupefied" (if we are going with Potter-Spells) witch is a huge attack on the victims personality, and b) the wizard has to take a deep look into the mind of his vic before he can recreate the worst nightmares unless he doesn't know them from somewhere else.

[Ophidimancer]

I'd say that the Crucio equivalent breaks the 4th Law, but the Can't Think and Petrified By Fear Maneuvers may work like Elaine's Mind Fog spell (YS 299) and thus not break the Law.  It depends on how you describe them, mostly.  I had a short conversation with Fred about projective empathy and he thought it would be a grey area.

Of course, I'm talking metaphysics here, and whether these acts will taint your character's soul.  How a Warden would perceive things is another thing.

[Papa Gruff]

I'd say that the Crucio equivalent breaks the 4th Law, but the Can't Think and Petrified By Fear Maneuvers may work like Elaine's Mind Fog spell (YS 299) and thus not break the Law.  It depends on how you describe them, mostly.  I had a short conversation with Fred about projective empathy and he thought it would be a grey area.

Probably true, but it's the deepest shade of gray you could think of. It comes down on how it is described. To me Can't Think and Petrified By Fear as they are described sound like the caster enters the mind of his target, you definitely enter it's thoughts. Hence lawbreaker. Stopping someone from thinking is messing with their thoughts as well as changing or reading them in my opinion.

The mind fog spell doesn't enter the mind (not if we go with the write up in YW) it simply dulls all the scenes. Harry simply dubs it mind fog to explain it to Murphy, perhaps he doesn't even know how it works, as he just takes precautions so that the fog can't touch him or Murphy. Apart from that I think it goes without saying, that the fog treads around the edges of the third law as well. But that's just me GMing a warden viewpoint

[Doc Nova]

Very nice!  On a similar note, I've got an Cthulhu-esque baddie that I statted out as having "Sanity Static" (mental stress, 0-range, full zone "aura") and an occultist spell called "Open Thine Eyes" (which slaps the "I've Seen Things I Should Not Have Seen!!" aspect on the poor sucker) for my upcoming game.  My fear on the "Sanity Static" one is the double whammy it'll have on practitioners, since evocation inflicts mental stress, the aura is sort of an "anti-magic" aura, as well.

[Ophidimancer]

In instances where someone wants to play a psychomancer I try to take the intent precedes mechanics route and really ask about how a particular spell is supposed to work.  Anything that is meant to induce lasting changes falls under enthrallment.  Things like Mind Fog or Bob's "Love" Potion don't control the mind outright, so don't quite break the Law, though they are headed in that direction.

[JustinS]

For fear. the question is 'do you push empathic fear' (not nice, but likely ok)at them, or do you reach in and trigger it(mindrape lawbreaker)? Note that with the 2nd, you likely get a supplementary assessment action to figure out what that fear is, so you can tag it later...

[GruffAndTumble]

Mind Fog is stated in Summer Knight to be illegal, actually. And I would rate ever single one of those listed spells as far blacker psychomancy than what Elaine whipped up.

Seriously, how is reaching into someone's mind and forcing their train of thought to a halt, dredging up old fears, or force-feeding them raw pain possibly not black magic? The "Petrified by Fear" spell is essentially what got Molly branded a potential warlock in the first place.

[Ophidimancer]

Mind Fog is stated in Summer Knight to be illegal, actually.

Illegal, which is subjective to the Warden, but probably not metaphysically damning.  Elaine's writeup doesn't include a Lawbreaker Aspect.

Seriously, how is reaching into someone's mind and forcing their train of thought to a halt, dredging up old fears, or force-feeding them raw pain possibly not black magic? The "Petrified by Fear" spell is essentially what got Molly branded a potential warlock in the first place.

I'd argue that Molly tried to warp someone's mind permanently, which would be different than some other possible psychomancy spells.  Like Mind Fog or Bob's "Love" Potion.  Also WHEN I ASKED THIS QUESTION TWO YEARS AGO Fred said projecting emotions at people was a grey area for him.

[luminos]

Illegal, which is subjective to the Warden, but probably not metaphysically damning.  Elaine's writeup doesn't include a Lawbreaker Aspect.

If Harry said it was black magic, there is a good chance that it was, not just to the overzealous standards of the wardens.  Also, the lack of lawbreaker stunt is a absolutely horrible argument, considering that a whole host of warlocks in Our World weren't given lawbreaker.  Grevane wasn't given lawbreaker in the first release of the PDF's, he was only given one in the updated PDF's because people made a point of telling Evil Hat he should have it. 

[Ophidimancer]

If Harry said it was black magic, there is a good chance that it was, not just to the overzealous standards of the wardens.

Does he say it's black magic, or does he just say it's illegal?

Also, the lack of lawbreaker stunt is a absolutely horrible argument, considering that a whole host of warlocks in Our World weren't given lawbreaker.  Grevane wasn't given lawbreaker in the first release of the PDF's, he was only given one in the updated PDF's because people made a point of telling Evil Hat he should have it.

Good point, still, there's also Fred's personal ruling that projective empathy is grey and not outright black.  There's also Harry saying that Bob's potion isn't a Fourth Law violation per se, so there is wiggle room for interpretation here.

[GruffAndTumble]

Whether Mind Fog is grey or black, it is not charged with negative emotions in the manner these spells are. Black magic is often described as associated with fear or inflicting pain, which these rotes do. In fact, the mental stress attacks flavor text could be argued to be both at once.

The grey areas of the Law of Magic do exist, but they are not wide open fields to dance around in. They are razor thin margins between necessary evils and damnation. Saying "I'm invading someone's mind, but I won't cause more damage than I need to" is not only black magic because of its psychomantic principles. It is black magic because of the colossal arrogance fueling the assumption that despite Harry's (and the entire White Council's) repeated assertions that messing around in someone's head is a hazardous, risky business and can cause permanent damage from the slightest slip-up, and that such slip ups are all but inevitable...*deep breath from run-on sentence*...you think that you are good enough not to make the mistakes that will break the target's psyche and stain your soul.

In fact, it could be argued that an assumption that you understand the grey areas well enough to avoid their pitfalls might catapult you to warlock status, even if the magic would be grey otherwise. As Harry is fond of pointing out, Pride Goeth....