Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals

[Mal_Luck]

I'm currently looking into rules about Thuamaturgy (I finally have a reason to do so beyond simple crafting). For taking consequences to power rituals, what happens in the case of spellcasters with Recovery Powers?

Example: A Spellcaster has Great Lore (+4) and Supernatural Recovery, he decides to make a 10 shift potion. While making the potion he decides to take a Mild (+2) and Moderate (+4) Physical Consequence to help pay for the effect, but because of Supernatural Recovery he is fully healed at the end of the scene.

This Spellcaster just got a 10 shift potion effect for the low, low price of one enchanted item slot.


I may have missed something in the rules, but is this just one of those situations where the rules can be badly abused?

[Morgan]

What exact consequences is he taking? If he is sacrificing himself say with his own blood, or maybe scarification, or even if he is just fasting for a long time or taking the exhausted consequence then yeah it's a bit cheesy that he could get rid of all those consequences in a moment or a scene. My solution would be to say that with sacrifice especially maybe it bypasses their Recovery, because it is being used to power a magical effect and until that magic is released the consequences have to be recovered in the normal amount of time.

But then again maybe it's just that awesome to be a Wizard or Practitioner with Superhuman Recovery. They spent the refresh on it, let them exploit those loop holes and be awesome. A really interesting side note to this is the Wizard Wolverine using this with his Evocations to soak up the backlash on uber powerful evocations.

I think it would really come down to intent and execution on the part of the player as to how I'd deal with this potential problem.

[luminos]

A nifty idea is that you can't have stunts or powers to help you recover from self-inflicted wounds.  This is already covered by the makers of the game who have said you can't have armor or protection against stress taken from spellcasting, so its not much of a stretch to say recovery powers won't help either.  Also, how the heck did a wizard get supernatural recovery?

[Mal_Luck]

Hence why I said spellcaster and not Wizard

Thank you for the answers so far, I was worried about potential abuse.

[Morgan]

One of those Sponsored Magic, Emissary of Power, or Item of Power deals probably. I've got a demon possessed character in one of my convention games with both Sponsored Hellfire and Supernatural Recovery. I was just never devious enough to think about putting the two abilities together and what that might mean. Granted it's a balls out, gonzo action movie type of scenario anyway so even if they go nuts with this loop hole I think it would be alright, but it might be one of those things you have to arbitrate for your home games if it really becomes an issue. And having the no armor against casting stress seems like a good way to explain why it isn't allowed.

[Doc Nova]

Alternatively, if you did decide to allow it, there's no reason why you couldn't have the bad guys show up just as the character in question is putting the finishing touches on his potion, is all wounded and not yet recovered, and let the fun play out from there. 

Ultimately, however, if the action the character is taking is harmful to the fun and story at the table, simply don't allow it.  The FATE system, being so player-narrative, is very easily exploited and trucks could be driven through potential loopholes.  While they're fun to come up with and talk about, implementing them is a different story.

I don't mind the notion of some hyper-regenerating character shoving a knife through his own hand to spook the crap out of hoodlum, knowing full well he'll recover quickly, but that would be in the theme of the character and story, not smacking a rule loophole just so they can WIN!

Anyway...just my two Denarians...

Doc

[GruffAndTumble]

What's wrong with a Wizard having Supernatural Recovery, I ask you? A powerful bloodline-anchored ritual done by an ancestor could provide it, he could wield an Item of Power granting him such regeneration, or he could be a multi-template character.

But for a bit more of an on topic answer, I would rule that consequences inflicted to power magic cannot be healed by any power the character that accepted them possesses. Sacrifice has a mystical potency in the Dresdenverse, and it is not a sacrifice to bled a couple drops of blood after a moment of pain, then be fine.

[Deadmanwalking]

I'm going to go by the letter of the rules:

Sacrificing Consequences like that works fine for ritual magic (aka Thaumaturgy), but Potions really don't work like that (they use the Item Creation rules, which are different). So you can do this...but not in the midst of combat, or when surprised.

So, in any circumstance you could use Declarations. Which don't necessarily take any longer, and lack the side effect of making you vulnerable in the midst of the ritual.


What makes this potentially broken again?

[GruffAndTumble]

I'm not arguing broken so much as horribly jarring from a setting and thematic perspective. I have no idea if it's broken, although I suspect an extended ritual involves using multiple minor consequences over and over would shatter the system (or at least most games) to bits.

[Mal_Luck]

I was under the impression self-consequences could be used for Potion effects, since you can boost potions using invocation of aspects.

But rereading again I suppose there is a difference between invoking aspects and taking consequences. As I said in my first post, this was the first time that I had seriously sat down to read the rules and I may have inadvertently lumped all forms of preparation together.

Nothing is broken then, I was wrong.  

Well at least for potions, other rituals might have some issues.

[Tsunami]

I'm not arguing broken so much as horribly jarring from a setting and thematic perspective. I have no idea if it's broken, although I suspect an extended ritual involves using multiple minor consequences over and over would shatter the system (or at least most games) to bits.

The Consequence is reduced for purposes of recovery, that does not mean that the consequence slot is free instantly.
The Slot is still occupied, and the consequence is still there until the end of the scene. Unless you use the shrug off option and that only works a limited number of times per scene.
So, since a ritual is one scene, you can't take a mild consequence, have it disappear instantly and then take another.

Taking that into account i would not worry about balance to much. It's not that big a deal.

[Wordmaker]

I agree that it's powerful to be able to produce such a strong effect so easily. However it's not outside the scope of what any wizard can do with time to invoke Aspects, skip scenes, and roll for declarations. A character with Supernatural Recovery has sunk a lot of Refresh into that power, so it's appropriate that they get a break on the time taken to prepare such a ritual.

Basically, unless there's something preventing a wizard from taking the time to prepare, there's very little that can stop them performing most rituals.

Now, if there is a problem which the PCs need to address quickly, who's to say there's time for a ritual at all? If you want to off-set the advantage of time that a spellcaster would have, remember that scenes have no set game-time length. If they want to perform a powerful ritual, unless they have appropriate Sponsored Magic, there may well not be enough time to perform the ritual to begin with.

[Biff Dyskolos]

Another option would be to tie the spell duration to consequences. When you recover from the consequences that you sacrificed then the spell ends.

[GruffAndTumble]

The Consequence is reduced for purposes of recovery, that does not mean that the consequence slot is free instantly.
The Slot is still occupied, and the consequence is still there until the end of the scene. Unless you use the shrug off option and that only works a limited number of times per scene.
So, since a ritual is one scene, you can't take a mild consequence, have it disappear instantly and then take another.

Taking that into account i would not worry about balance to much. It's not that big a deal.

Rituals are explicitly stated not to be limited to a single scene of prep time. Taking extra scenes is a listed method of reaching the Complexity. And the Declarations made are generally described as separate "mini-scenes" as well. Assuming your GM imposes a maximum of one scene for your ritual every three hours (a steeper restriction than I would impose normally), a character with Inhuman Recovery can pull 18 shifts out of that power alone in an average workday, and still have a couple of hours to relax before getting a solid night's rest.

--First, inflict a minor consequence on yourself. Shrug it off. 2 shifts.
--Inflict a second minor consequence on yourself. It be removed at the end of the scene, by being reduced below mild. 2 shifts
--Inflict a moderate consequence on yourself. It begins recovery immediately, and is treated as if it were Mild, removing itself at the end of the next scene. 4 shifts (End Scene)
--Skip a scene. 1 Shift. All Consequence slots are cleared. (End Scene)
--Repeat above steps. You have now grabbed +18 Complexity in twelve hours. You may add your Lore to this and begin channeling the majority of effects immediately. If you're willing to stay up late, you can go up to 27+Lore shifts without much trouble, which is often enough for an outright Death Spell, Victor Sells style.

Oh, and Inhuman Recovery helps you stay awake longer too. Spend a couple days opening and reopening wounds, and you will be able to level a city block or two, bind (not contain. Bind!) lesser heavyweights to your will, or unravel the outer wards of Edinburgh.

And that's just with Inhuman Recovery. Upgrade it to Supernatural recovery, and you throw around nigh-infinite complexity rituals, and do it relatively quickly.

A character with Mythic Recovery, Thaumaturgy, and a week of time off could pull off a Ritual easily exceeding 100 complexity. That's enough to break through a maximized Legendary Discipline roll and Take Out (fully consequences bypassed) a character who has the Mental Equivalent of Mythic Toughness with FIFTY FOUR shifts to spare for things like extended duration. I suspect Mab herself could be enslaved to the with of such a ritual, at least for a while.

[wyvern]

And, as GruffAndTumble just demonstrated, taking consequences as prep work is totally ludicrous if you've got recovery powers.  Instead, I'd suggest that if you're spending consequences on upping the complexity, all such consequences must be extracted during the casting - which, by definition, is a single scene.  Now, that still means someone with recovery powers can add a "cheap" six complexity by taking a minor and moderate consequence that'll clear quickly - but if they get interrupted or miss a control roll, they'll be in rather worse shape than someone who played things safer.