Character Creation Help

[CMEast]

Ok, so I gave it a go. It's not perfect and I'm bound to have missed something but we'll see.

My first thought was that summoning a creature means that you now have two characters running around to control which takes time away from other players and my second thought was that if you get hit/damaged while your demon is running around then what happens to the summoning spell. My final concern was to make it possible to bind the demon quickly but it still be a powerful spell i.e. not easy to cast.

So working with Ophidimancer's suggestion that they start with an extreme consequence like 'PC is my master' (the demons have previously been bound by you, you know their name, you've been given power over them etc) I came up with this idea.

You cast the spell, it takes an exchange or two but that summons the creature AND creates a ward around you. It's a 8 shift block that lasts the duration of the scene, as does the summoning. The summoned demon appears in the same zone as you and you basically control it like you would your normal character. Every exchange the demon tries to escape control, rolled as a mental conflict between you and the demon, it's conviction attacking your discipline.

With the build below you can:
Handle a summoning ritual of up to complexity 16 without preparation.
Complexity = Lore (6) + refinements (4) + focus item (6)

Control up to 10 shifts of power each exchange, 12 if your demon might kill things. With a few aspects invoked/tagged and a source of power (sacrifice or sponsor) you could technically cast it in one exchange. Otherwise you can cast it in two or three exchanges depending on how much mental stress you want to take.

The spell is:
Demonic Summoning: Complexity is 16 Shift Ritual
Barrier - a 8 shift ward (block) surrounding the caster only (using focus item)
Summoning complexity - 8 shifts

--18 Refresh--
[-3] Thaumaturgy
[-3] Sponsored Magic – Faustian Bargain & Hell-fire channelling
[-2] Lawbreaker (First Law) (+2 to casting roll for casting spells that will result in breaking the First Law)
[-5] Refinements (specialisation bonuses)
+1 Ward Control (Bonus for Thaumaturgy)
+2 Ward Complexity
+3 Summoning Control
+4 Summoning Complexity
[-4] Item of Power - Demonic Chain.

Demonic Chain
This item, granted due to a demonic bargain with a Lord of Hell, allows the wielder to summon demonic forces to his aid. It's a long, heavy chain that can be wielded like a whip or flail, covered in vicious barbs and engraved with demonic runes that hunger to taste blood. The weapons true strength, is in it's ability to create binds and wards. At a command, it can bind an opponent, causing him to writhe in pain as if he were wrapped in barbed wire. A second command can cause it to form a perfect, solid circle around the wielder; spinning and floating in mid-air as a barrier forms, or wrapping around the wielder as armour.
Weapon: 3, counts as Unholy, unbreakable
[+2] One-time discount
[-1] Blood Thirsty: When swung in keeping with it's purpose, it grants a +1 to wielders weapon skill.
[-1] The PC can summon the Demonic Chain to his hand with a thought
[-4] Refinements (additional focus item slots, on top of ) which are spent as:
[6 Focus Slots] Focus Item: +6 to Complexity (Summoning), +2 to Control (Summoning)
[2 Enchanted Item Slots] Enchanted Item: Fantastic (+6) Defensive Block 3 times a session.
[2 Enchanted Item Slots] Enchanted Item: Superb (+5) Offensive Block, lasting for 3 exchanges, once a session. Uses Discipline to target, opposed by Endurance.


Total refresh is -17

--60 Skill Points--
Fantastic (+6): Conviction, Lore
Superb (+5): Discipline, Athletics, Endurance
Great (+4): Alertness, Deceit, Weapons
Good (+3): Presence, Rapport, Resources
Fair (+2): Contacts, Driving, Scholarship, Stealth
Average (+1): Burglary, Guns, investigation, Survival

and some sample demons:

This one is based on the Scarecrow which you've mentioned.

High Concept: Fear Demon
Other Aspects: Nightmare Incarnate,
Skills
Alertness: Good (+3)
Athletics: Good (+3)
Conviction: Superb (+4)
Deceit: Great (+4)
Endurance: Good (+3)
Fists: Great (+4)
Intimidation: Superb (+5)
Might: Good (+3)
Most other skills default to Average or Fair.
 
Stunts
Smell Fear (Investigation): +2 to Investigation rolls to home in on or locate a source of fear.
Worst Nightmare: +2 to intimidation

Powers:
[–2] Glamours
[-1] Emotional Vampire(Fear)
[-2] Ranged Incite Emotion
[-4] Psychic Shapeshifting - always looks like the viewers worst nightmare, skills don't change.
[-8] Physical Immunity - Can't be hurt by anyone scared of him.
[+5] The Catch (Stacked) is anyone not scared of him.
[–1] Claws (in any form it takes)
[–1] Spider Walk
[-1] Wings (not always visible, depending on the viewers nightmare)
[–4] Supernatural Strength
[–4] Supernatural Toughness
[–4] Supernatural Recovery
[+3] Catch is holy items and expressions of genuine faith.

Total refresh is -25

This one is just a melee monster

High Concept: Demonic Squid Pig
Other aspects: Bestial Rage, Blind, Heartbeat Hunter

Alertness: Average (+1)
Athletics: Average (+1)
Conviction: Great (+4)
Endurance: Superb (+5)
Fists: Superb (+4)
Might: Superb (+5)
Other other physical skills default to Good, the rest to Fair.
 
Stunts
Sensitive hearing (Alertness): +4 to Alertness when listening for heartbeats if there's no other loud, distracting noises around.
Tentacled Monstrosity (Might): +2 when using Might to grapple.
 
Powers
[-1] Aquatic
[-1] Supernatural Sense
[-6] Mythic Strength
[-6] Mythic Toughness
[-6] Mythic Recovery
[+4] Catch is holy items, expressions of genuine faith, if subjected to extremely loud noises.
Total Refresh Cost: –16

And this one is so that I'm not just perpetuating the 'angry demon' stereotype

High Concept: Demonic Scout
Other aspects: One head two bodies, not a fighter

Alertness: Superb (+5)
Athletics: Great (+4)
Burglary: Fair (+2)
Conviction: Good (+3)
Stealth: Good (+3)
Survival: Fair (+2)
Other other skills default to Average.

Stunts:
[-1] Fear-fueled strength: When either body is in danger, it gets +4 to conviction as long as it doesn't attack.

Powers
[-1] Claws
[-1] Diminutive Size
[-1] Spider Walk
[-1] Cloak of Shadows
[-1] Psychometry
[-3] Broad Supernatural Senses
[-2] Greater Glamours (depicting holograms)
[-2] Inhuman Speed
Total Refresh Cost: -12
Note: While the 'head' (a vile rat-like thing with huge, bulbous eyes and vicious fangs) goes off to scout, the 'body' (imagine a TV made of flesh, covered in tiny mouths with one large mouth for a screen, inside of which is a pool of swirling ectoplasm) shows you everything the head sees, using glamours to provide a picture and the mouths for sound.

Hah, beaten to it by Ophidimancer Well if we all try I'm sure we'll find a reasonable version. Also, without lawbreaker there'd be more refresh available for non-demonic spells

[Crion]

Just thought I'd pop in and ask: which mechanics are you uncertain about? The Refinement section, the idea of summoning on the fly, or statting the beasties (which CMEast seems to have offered a solution to)?

Otherwise, you have a pretty solid set of abilities there (although I would personally suggest taking The Sight), and I would surely side with you on Refinements. Stunts are going to be something to consider as well, especially Lore and Resources stunts, among others.

Now, when it comes to the summoning at the speed of Evocation, I can see that being done with something as simple as the True Name of the beast. Things like the ritual circle and whatnot can be done in your head, as Harry noted on a few cases,

(click to show/hide)

performed in Changes when he "summoned" Mab

(Changes Spoiler), or as being part of your character's Bargain. Those kind of flavor things help to make sense of it. Just my thoughts on the matter.

[Ophidimancer]

Hah, beaten to it by Ophidimancer Well if we all try I'm sure we'll find a reasonable version.

Only beat you by 8 seconds!

We also offered different kinds of advice, so I'm sure it's all good.

[Ophidimancer]

Now, when it comes to the summoning at the speed of Evocation, I can see that being done with something as simple as the True Name of the beast. Things like the ritual circle and whatnot can be done in your head, as Harry noted on a few cases,

(click to show/hide)

performed in Changes when he "summoned" Mab

(Changes Spoiler), or as being part of your character's Bargain. Those kind of flavor things help to make sense of it. Just my thoughts on the matter.

Or, if he gives his demons the Extreme Consequence that I suggested, I guess you could just spend a Fate Point and compel the demon to automatically fail in resisting your summons or commands.

[CMEast]

Only beat you by 8 seconds!

We also offered different kinds of advice, so I'm sure it's all good.

Hah yeah, that's why I edited to squeeze my reply in to yourself and DMW, otherwise my post might have been pushed on to page 3

[Tbora]

I have to say; both of your solutions are ingenious, I have to say for a regular old submerged game your concept works best Ophidimancer as that could concievably be done with a ten refresh character (the demons you created for it I mean), where as you CMEast works best for the higher end refresh game because it fits the level of potency needed for  my 18 refresh game.

Bravo.

If I could combine the two ways of doing it, that would be awesome.

Any suggestions?

[Ophidimancer]

Well, you can always tweak the numbers from my example to fit you Refresh level.  I just wanted to show an example of the summoning process.

My approach specifically only covers having a stable of regularly summoned demons, which I think is a staple of demon binder characters.

The important number to look at is the Conviction score of the demon you want bound.

You should look over YS 272-3 for the full scoop on how to Summon and Bind a new demon.

[Tbora]

Thanks, answer me this, which of the two builds is more effective yours or CMEast's?

[Ophidimancer]

Well CM's would be more effective, since he actually gave you a build.  I just gave you the bare bones of a build (Conviction 5, Discipline 5) in order to zoom in on the mechanics of summoning.

I see that CMEast recommended that you go with Specializations instead of Focus Items, and that's alright, too, since you have the Refresh for it.  Oh wait, that's probably because he ran into the Lore bonus cap on Focus Items.

CMEast's character has the equivalent of Conviction 16 and Discipline 10 for the purposes of Summoning, which is pretty freaking scary.  The only suggestion I would make is to change everything that says Summoning to say Diabolism instead.  That way, you get mega huge bonuses to everything concerning demons: summoning, containing, and binding.  Perhaps I would also suggest switching out some Complexity (Power for fast Thaumaturgy purposes) for Control, because the Control roll has to meet the shifts of Power anyway and having them be even makes it simpler.  Also allows for more powerful Rotes.

[Tbora]

I am not sure what you mean, could C+P with the changes you recommend?

[Ophidimancer]

I am not sure what you mean, could C+P with the changes you recommend?

Huh?  Now I'm the one who's not sure what you mean.  You don't add Complexity and Power together.  When you do fast Thaumaturgy using Sponsored Magic, you use Complexity to determine how much Power you need to summon up.

I would suggest switching some of those Complexity and Control Refinements to make the numbers more even.  You could easily tweak those numbers to get the equivalent of Conviction 13 and Discipline 13 instead of 16 and 10.

[CMEast]

Perhaps I misunderstood the rules for thaumaturgic rituals. I thought that the complexity only decided how powerful a ritual could be without additional preparation? From what I read, you're limited to your standard conviction for funnelling power into a ritual but, because it can be done over a number of exchanges, that doesn't usually matter. Which is why the discipline is at 10, so that even with a bad roll he could easily control the power and so that he can take advantage of sacrificing and sponsored magic to raise more power quickly.

With a conviction of 6, he can safely cast a ritual in 3 exchanges, he can cast it in 2 if he takes some mental stress when raising power. I think

Let me know if I've misunderstood the rules though please, it's easy to do as they are pretty complex.

[Tbora]

Huh?  Now I'm the one who's not sure what you mean.  You don't add Complexity and Power together.  When you do fast Thaumaturgy using Sponsored Magic, you use Complexity to determine how much Power you need to summon up.

I would suggest switching some of those Complexity and Control Refinements to make the numbers more even.  You could easily tweak those numbers to get the equivalent of Conviction 13 and Discipline 13 instead of 16 and 10.

C+P= Copy and Paste

[Ophidimancer]

Perhaps I misunderstood the rules for thaumaturgic rituals. I thought that the complexity only decided how powerful a ritual could be without additional preparation? From what I read, you're limited to your standard conviction for funnelling power into a ritual but, because it can be done over a number of exchanges, that doesn't usually matter. Which is why the discipline is at 10, so that even with a bad roll he could easily control the power and so that he can take advantage of sacrificing and sponsored magic to raise more power quickly.

No, no you're completely right.  I'm totally talking just about using Sponsored Magic to cast Thaumaturgy with Evocation's speed and methods.  Doing so requires that you summon the power (using Complexity as the measure of the shifts needed) and control it all in one exchange.  I was building for fast casting summonings because that's what I thought the original poster was after.

Hmm ... now that you mention it, the higher a base Complexity you have, the faster you can get to a ritual without needing to resort to fast casting.  I guess it just comes down to how one wants to prioritize.

[Tbora]

So what do I change to CMEast's thing?