Supernatural version of Redirected Force

[Fedifensor]

I have a player who wants to make a Emissary of Power linked to the Buddah, who wants the ability to redirect an attack upon him back at the attacker.  This is similar (but far superior) to the Redirected Force mortal stunt under Fists.  I don't know how to price the ability, but here's how it works:
* You may use Conviction in place of Athletics versus any physical attack (Fists, Weapons, Guns, or magical attacks)
* On a successful defense roll with Conviction, you may sacrifice your next action to either treat the defense as a successful maneuver on your part (requiring no actual rolling) or to make an attack of the same type back at the original attacker, with a maximum Weapon strength equal to his Conviction.  If the latter, the character rolls Conviction to hit (instead of the original ability used to attack), but cannot achieve more shifts than the number of shifts on the defense roll.

Example: 
Mandrake the mage throws a fire bolt at Bodi the Buddhist, who has the supernatural ability to redirect attacks.  Mandrake has a Conviction of 3, a +2 Focus Item, and takes two extra stress, making the bolt a Weapon:7.  Mandrake rolls his Discipline, but only gets a Good (+3) result.  Bodi rolls his Conviction of Superb to defend, and gets a Superb (+5) result, giving him two shifts on Mandrake.  This deflects the attack, and Bodi takes no damage. 

Bodi then sacrifices his next action to redirect the attack back at Mandrake.  Because his Conviction is Superb (+5), the attack drops from a Weapon:7 to a Weapon:5 attack.  He rolls Conviction (instead of Discipline) to hit, and gets a Legendary (+7) result.  Mandrake rolls poorly, and only gets an Average (+1) result, which would normally be six shifts for Bodi.  However, he is limited to two shifts, because that was the amount by which he succeeded on his defense roll.  Mandrake takes a 7-stress hit (Weapon:5 plus 2 for the shifts) and passes out as he is struck in the chest by his own magic.

So, how much would you charge for this ability?  Would you change the mechanics of how it works?

[luminos]

-2, maybe? 

Also, in your example, how does the mage handle the failed control over his spell?  Backlash or Fallout?  If its Fallout, then he was casting a weapon: 3 spell.

[Ophidimancer]

As a Buddhist I find the concept of an Emissary of Buddha ... strange.  I'd probably do the debt mechanic backwards, having the character take voluntary compels ahead of time for increased capacity later.

Anyway what you're probably looking for is using your Sponsored Magic to cast a Ward at Evocation speed.  Wards as a default reflect magical attacks back upon their caster.  You can probably justify the lack of a threshold by saying that one's body is sacrosanct, or maybe you can do a kata or meditation that describes some sort of mandala of protection around you.

[Deadmanwalking]

That sounds like about a -1 Power...maybe -2. Most -1 powers duplicate 2-3 Mundane Stunts...and this duplicates maybe three and a half (Footwork, Redirec ted Force, and enhanced Riposte).

Skip the option to do Maneuvers (leaving only the Attack option) and it's definitely only -1.

[CMEast]

What would happen if he was attacked twice or more? Would this ability only work once? Or would he be able to split his attack (a conviction 3 attack on one attacker and a conviction 2 attacker on another)?

I think I'd put the power at -2 refresh, as the others say it's between -1 and -2, but as it allows the character to use conviction for defense AND attack it's a little more powerful, it saves having to put skill points in both attack and defense skills which is very handy.

[Fedifensor]

Here's a bit of additional info:

I'm not that knowledgeable about Buddhism or the Buddah (beyond what Wikipedia can provide), but the player is fairly well-versed in religions.  He gave some examples of how someone attempted to attack the Buddah multiple times, only to have the effect of each attack turned about.  Archers sent to kill the Buddah ended up becoming his disciples, a rock rolled at him hit another rock and was shattered, etc.  I've asked him to do additional research and give me more information.

My thought was that the deflection could occur multiple times in a round (he's not restricted on how many times he uses Conviction as a defense), but he could only turn it into an attack by sacrificing his next action (limited the redirect to once per exchange).  It seems quite a bit more powerful than similar Mortal Stunts:
* Footwork allows a person to roll Fists (which already works for close-combat) against any attack, while this would let a noncombat skill work against any attack.
* Redirected Force only allows you to place a maneuver on the attacker...this would allow you to turn a very powerful attack against the attacker.  Unlike Riposte, this attack uses the attacker's Weapon value, and can affect any type of attack.

I'd prefer to avoid Sponsored Magic, as that places specific limits on how often the character can do this, and because this is more of a bloodline thing than an active use of magic.

More later - I have to get to work.

[Ophidimancer]

I'd prefer to avoid Sponsored Magic, as that places specific limits on how often the character can do this, and because this is more of a bloodline thing than an active use of magic.

Wards last a whole day be default, or rather until the sun next rises or sets.  You can do it once and it'll last a long time.  Also, you don't always have to use your debt with sponsored magic, you can choose to spend Fate Points as usual to invoke an Aspect.

I'd suggest you compel the character to things like nonviolence, forgiveness, compassion, and detachment.

[JosephKell]

Here are the problems I see:
1.  The usual defense roll against spell attacks is Dodging or an in progress Block.  Without preparation (a prepared block), Discipline doesn't factor in to evocation defense.
2.  Redirecting their own magic back seems really broken.  Especially if it can allow you to effectively make a spell level attack (weapon:3-6+) without taking mental stress.

Here is the stunt I came up with.

"Magical Riposte (Discipline Stunt)"
Most spellslingers can only halt incoming spells, some are talented enough to send them back.  On a successful defense with a spell block, you may sacrifice your next action to immediately and automatically successfully redirect the attacker's spell back at the attacker with effect equal to how much better your block was.  You take mental stress as if you had cast a spell equal to the strength of your block.  This stunt can't be used in conjunction with an enchanted item.  In the case of a zone effecting spell, you can only defend yourself unless you were using a zone block.  No matter what, you can only send the spell back at the attacker.

So this requires:
1.  You have a block already in effect.
2.  Your block must be better (your Discipline and Shifts beat their Discipline).

Result:
1.  The block remains, but having already sacrificed your next action, you can't riposte multiple attacks at once.
2.  You do take more mental stress.
3.  Your next action is consumed.
4.  You send their attack or maneuver back at them.  If it is a maneuver you get at least 1 level of stickiness since a successful block is always at least 1 better than the attack it negated.

This still seems kind of powerful for a stunt (i.e. just -1 refresh).  But I think it is justified since it forces a certain strategy and you still take mental stress for redirecting (so it isn't like you get to do spell attacks for free).

This is definitely something the Merlin might have, since he is said to be really good at devastating defenses.

[Fedifensor]

Okay, I talked with the player a bit, and we're modifying the source of the power.  The character is still a devout Buddhist who believes in nonviolence (which is different than pacifism).  However, the power is from something unwholesome, and the character is trying to suppress the darker aspects of the power.  More on that in a few days when we can meet and discuss it in more detail.

I agree with the first few posters that the power as I presented it looks to be around a -3 Refresh ability.  I'm not a fan of doing this as spellcasting.  It's more cumbersome, and isn't something that should be broken through and have to be reset.  It's like an Aikedo move that can succeed or fail, not a shield that has to be overcome.  Powerful, yes...but there are ways around it.  It's designed for use against direct attacks, and indirect attacks could not be deflected (attacks versus an entire area, etc).  It also doesn't work against magical attacks that target the mind.

As currently written, there is an upper limit on the power of the redirected attack (the character's Conviction score).  I can run this either as reducing the redirected attack to that level, or disallow a redirect if the attack is stronger than the character's Conviction.  The latter appeals to me, as there are some things too powerful to be redirected.  You don't stop a train...you get out of the way.

Here are the problems I see:
1.  The usual defense roll against spell attacks is Dodging or an in progress Block.  Without preparation (a prepared block), Discipline doesn't factor in to evocation defense.
2.  Redirecting their own magic back seems really broken.  Especially if it can allow you to effectively make a spell level attack (weapon:3-6+) without taking mental stress.

I don't see #1 as a problem.  There is already a mortal stunt that lets you use Fists instead of Athletics when dodging.  Allowing Conviction instead of Athletics as a supernatural ability instead of a stunt seems reasonable, and should be worth -1 refresh by itself (since supernatural abilities are stronger than the equivalent mortal stunts).

#2 can be an issue, which is why the power of the redirected attack is limited by Conviction.  I don't see redirecting a Weapon:3 attack as a problem, since pure mortals can get access to a Weapon:3 attack without a Refresh cost or taking stress from using that attack.  Weapon:5 (which is the maximum the original proposal can do, since the power is limited by Conviction) is borderline, but as long as I price the ability appropriately in Refresh cost, it should be balanced.  I think the core of the proposal is solid, and just needs some finessing.

Actually, the biggest problem I have right now is coming up with a good name for the power...

[CMEast]

Karmic Shield or Karmic Defense?

[Fedifensor]

Karmic Shield or Karmic Defense?

Hmm.  Karmic Deflection may work for the first part of the power...

[JosephKell]

I don't see #1 as a problem.  There is already a mortal stunt that lets you use Fists instead of Athletics when dodging.  Allowing Conviction instead of Athletics as a supernatural ability instead of a stunt seems reasonable, and should be worth -1 refresh by itself (since supernatural abilities are stronger than the equivalent mortal stunts).

This isn't about a defense trapping.  This is about being equipped to "redirect."  With Riposte, the character is equipped with another weapon to deflect and attack.  With magic, you need magic ready to go to redirect.  For evocation, that is a Block.

And just because it is called a "block" doesn't mean it is a tower shield someone stands behind.  It can be described anyway a person wants.  Someone with the stunt I proposed could have their blocks appear to be an aura surrounding hand and arm, ready to be directed to where it is needed most.

#2 can be an issue, which is why the power of the redirected attack is limited by Conviction.  I don't see redirecting a Weapon:3 attack as a problem, since pure mortals can get access to a Weapon:3 attack without a Refresh cost or taking stress from using that attack.  Weapon:5 (which is the maximum the original proposal can do, since the power is limited by Conviction) is borderline, but as long as I price the ability appropriately in Refresh cost, it should be balanced.  I think the core of the proposal is solid, and just needs some finessing.

Balancing it by making it expensive isn't really balancing it.  It makes it less available, not less powerful.

A wizard can't take a -3 redirect power in even a Submerged game.

And your argument against stress could also be used to say "evocation should never inflict mental stress," which is ridiculous: stress balances evocation/channeling magic.

The fact is, allowing not just blocking but redirection with no preparation is broken.  Allowing redirection without stress is even more broken.  It basically negates enemy spellcasters and when the GM starts giving them this power, negates player spellcasters and in general makes them all pretty pointless.  I guess "dog pile" tactics can still work, but that is really messed up.

But I was talking about the specific case of blocking an incoming spell.  Your proposal talks about successfully defending against ANYTHING.  And being able to send off an attack with no stress just by being attacked yourself (and successfully defending) is just broken.

[Fedifensor]

This isn't about a defense trapping.  This is about being equipped to "redirect."  With Riposte, the character is equipped with another weapon to deflect and attack.  With magic, you need magic ready to go to redirect.  For evocation, that is a Block.

Riposte is a mortal stunt.  This is a full-fledged supernatural power.  Furthermore, the character isn't using mortal magic.  I suppose I could write it up as a form of sponsored magic, but the character doesn't create blasts of energy, do rituals, etc...which means at best it would be a very limited and specialized version of Channeling.

Balancing it by making it expensive isn't really balancing it.  It makes it less available, not less powerful.

A wizard can't take a -3 redirect power in even a Submerged game.

Tell that to whoever wrote up Physical Immunity as a power that can be taken in a Submerged game (with a +0 Catch, no less).  Most of the powers in the game are designed around making them less available (through the limited resource of Refresh), not less powerful.  The mechanics are designed to make more powerful abilities cost more as a balancing factor.  Sure, a GM can impose additional restrictions...and many do.  But the core system doesn't.

Also, I could see making a redirect spell using Evocation, though it would prevent the use of the deflection portion on successive exchanges.  Create the Block with multiple shifts for duration.  You block with it in one exchange, then use the rules on page 260 YS to turn the block into an attack (special effect is that you attack with what you were attacked with) on the following exchange.  Evocation is a -3 refresh power - every wizard has access to a redirect power.  It would cause stress each time the Block is renewed...but Evocation also can do a lot more than Block or Attack.  That flexibility comes at the price of greater effort.

I haven't finalized the power.  Three other posters have priced the ability at either -2 or -3, and I've tentatively priced it at -3...but I'm certainly open to increasing the cost.

And your argument against stress could also be used to say "evocation should never inflict mental stress," which is ridiculous: stress balances evocation/channeling magic.

Evocation produces something from nothing, can be tailored to bypass Catches, and has no hard limit to how powerful it can be.  That is why it costs mental stress to use.

Mortal weaponry requires having the weapon in order to make the attack, cannot be tailored to bypass Catches on the fly (though you can bypass some with preparation), and has hard limits on the power level (you can usually carry around a Weapon:2, or a Weapon:3 if you're not concerned about concealing the item - Weapon:4 is very hard to come by).

The proposed ability (Karmic Redirection?) requires being attacked in order to make an attack in return on your next action, cannot be tailored to bypass Catches (because you're limited to what is thrown at you), and has a hard limit on the power level (about two points higher than what a pure mortal can have).

The fact is, allowing not just blocking but redirection with no preparation is broken.  Allowing redirection without stress is even more broken.  It basically negates enemy spellcasters and when the GM starts giving them this power, negates player spellcasters and in general makes them all pretty pointless.  I guess "dog pile" tactics can still work, but that is really messed up.

But I was talking about the specific case of blocking an incoming spell.  Your proposal talks about successfully defending against ANYTHING.  And being able to send off an attack with no stress just by being attacked yourself (and successfully defending) is just broken.

There are two parts to the power, and you seem to be confusing one part with the other.

The first part is substituting Conviction for Athletics to dodge.  "Successfully defending against ANYTHING" is a very misleading statement.  Anything this ability can avoid with a Conviction of Superb can be avoided with an Athletics of Superb...all it does is swap one skill for another.  That's not broken.  By game mechanics, it's identical to what a pure mortal can do...make a defense roll against an incoming attack.  It doesn't negate enemy spellcasters any more than taking Athletics (+5) negates those casters.

Second, redirection isn't giving you a free action.  The action the character spends redirecting an attack could just as easily be used to pull out a rifle and shoot the attacker.  Your objections seem to be centered around the amount of force the character can redirect, and the fact that the character can redirect magic.  The former can be easily adjusted...heck, I could make it a Weapon:0 attack by default, which means the only damage would come from the shifts the character gets on the attack versus defense roll.  The latter...well, I don't really understand the latter.  Other than bypassing catches, there isn't much difference between a Weapon:3 bolt of fire and a Weapon:3 bullet.  Both are equally efficient at doing damage.

[Fedifensor]

So, I finally had a chance to meet with the player.  We've formally made the switch to having him be the unwilling Emissary of a darker power - Kali, struggling against the destructive forces that the goddess offers him.  As such, we ended up going with a more traditional writeup.

Powers:
Aura of Destruction [-1] - The power of Kali shields the character from harm.  You may use your Conviction in place of Athletics on all dodging rolls.  This is basically a supernatural version of a mortal stunt.
Sponsored Magic (Kali) [-4] - This is the power of destruction.  One of the standard spells is magic that redirects an attack made against the character back on the attacker.  The game effect is that the attack is the same type as the last attack used against the character.  Kali will usually offer to enhance the attack to equal the power that was originally thrown at the character.
Inhuman Recovery [-2] - Kali is filled with an endless appetite of destruction, which fuels the character even when others would tire.

The powerset is subject to change in the future, but as this is our first Dresden campaign we're going to stay a bit closer to the abilities written up in the core rules.