Various power balance questions (Previously -refresh for skills)

[Deadmanwalking]

Uh...you can't get Specializations with Channeling dude. Still the basic point is reasonable enough.

[GruffAndTumble]

Hm, you sure? I need to revise a one-shot pregen, then. With thirty minutes before game. *sighs, and goes to check the book*

EDIT: I'm inclined to disagree. The only reference I can find that supports your statement is page 182, where is says you can "gain two additional specialization bonuses for Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy." It does not say the Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy powers. And those two words describe different methods of spellcraft just as often as powers.

[lankyogre]

Sorry to sidetrack, but can a focused practitioner take refinement?
Most of refinement refers to evocation and thaumaturgy, not channeling or ritual, so the specialization from refinement doesn't look like it fits. And the template for focused practitioner doesn't say you can take refinement, whereas the template for sorcerer or wizard does say (and in the case of sorcerer, how much).

[ahunting]

Sorry to sidetrack, but can a focused practitioner take refinement?

Yes they can see Channeling in YS 181. They are somewhat limited in what they can do with it.

Most of refinement refers to evocation and thaumaturgy, not channeling or ritual, so the specialization from refinement doesn't look like it fits. And the template for focused practitioner doesn't say you can take refinement, whereas the template for sorcerer or wizard does say (and in the case of sorcerer, how much).

They are limited in what they can gain from it b/c they they can't ever build a good pyramid for a major bonus. But They can take it for items slots as much as they like, So foci, Potions, and enchanted items are all open as far as they can go.

Sorcerers are the ones limited in the amount of refinement they can take See page YS 81. They can only take 1 time per spell ability. This is balanced by the fact they are encouraged to take law breaker. (Do the math and see which one is better. lol) But as a note I also would interpret that to mean they could still take refinement for the purposes of item slots.  (yeah know I'm Cheesy get over it.)

[luminos]

All magic users can take refinement for item slots.  Wizards can take it for whatever, as much as they want.  Sorcerers can take it multiple times for item slots, but only once each for Thaumaturgy and Evocation specializations.  A smart GM might want to limit how much a focused practitioner actually uses refinement for item slots, because there is a lot of abuse potential in there.

[Barodahn]

Okay, so i messed up six way from sunday in how i setup that question and the power to go with it.  Wrong, wrong, wrong on my part, i was Trying to Avoid restarting the focused practitioner discussion and instead started it!!.

I have gone in and crossed out original entry.

What I was TRYING to address was a way to make a character with a single element focus have a way to progress and become powerful while staying in a single element.  This would NOT be core dresden, but my idea of how it might work for a character in dresden born of a elemental or wind god or something like that, or for a Avatar: The last airbender, or Codex Alera type character.

So starting from the ground up.  Here is what i actually meant.

Elementalist. 
-1 Power 
You have access to one elemental type of magic from any given system.  You make use that element to cast Attack, Block, or Maneuver Spells.  You make also use it for mundane effects.  You may have a number of rote spells up to you lore.
Due to your focus and innate ability with this element, you do not gain and may not have specialization, focus items, or enchanted items.  This means you may not take refinement of any time.  You also forever forgo the option to upgrade to channeling, or evocation, you may also never take ritual or thaumaturgy.

Elemental Mastery
-1 
This power may be taken multiple  times.  When you choose this power, you gain a +1 to either your control or you power to cast and control a spell (ie, ROLLS).  It does not add to your conviction or discipline.  It may only be taken up to an number of times equal to half your conviction or discipline, whichever is lower (does this seem like too low a limit?). It does not effect your conviction score in terms of how much power you can cast with rote spells.

So the question is does THIS seem balanced and appropriate, having nothing to do with core "focused practitioner", as an alternative system, or is elemental mastery too strong?

Sorry for getting the discussion off track from what i was ACTUALLY trying to figure out.

[luminos]

Elemental Mastery seems balanced, it could perhaps be given a higher cap on the number of times being taken.  Elementalist is too powerful, I believe.  Its almost on par with channeling, with a slight disadvantage for not having the focus items.  Might I suggest requiring a player to take at least one level of Elemental Mastery to go with Elementalist?  That would make it look perfect to me.

[Deadmanwalking]

EDIT: I'm inclined to disagree. The only reference I can find that supports your statement is page 182, where is says you can "gain two additional specialization bonuses for Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy." It does not say the Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy powers. And those two words describe different methods of spellcraft just as often as powers.

See p. 181 under Channeling itself: "You may gain more Item Slots as one of the options on the Refinement ability (page 182)—but you may only buy Refinement for that purpose."


Elementalist...isn't too bad, actually. The loss of the Focus Items really weakens it. Though I'm not at all sure it's necessary. Channeling serbes the same thematic purpose quite well. Elemental mastery doesn't look too bad either, though I'm a bit more worried about what allowing it would cause.

[Barodahn]

So putting things together, though without some of what we have talked about, too hard to do all of the ideas.

How does this look?
Some of these will be brief, since still figuring it out.


Alucious *haven't thought of last name yet*
High Concept, Son of the God of Wind
Trouble: Having a hard time with this,

Aspect.  Older than recorded history.  His father was a early wind god, worshiped by his people and given form, Alucious was his first born son, leader of the tribe of wind (there were tribes for every element), war began with another group of tribes worshiping different things, all the tribes were wiped out, (as fas as he knows) he was the only one left alive, without the worship, his father lost power a died, gave his blade to his son to guard to world with before he faded.
           Wielder of the Wind Blade, trying to protect the world and people, he traveled, having been taught the sword by a god of wind (ie, speed) he became incredibly skilled, and found that he did not age and was even faster than before.
           Someone stole 100 years from me and they will pay.  Someone somehow snuck up on him and took him out, never saw them, no idea who, but they captured him, stuck him in a cave and imprisoned him, impaled on his own sword for over a hundred years, was rescued

(click to show/hide)

(by shiro is my idea, before he died)

, found the world anew and very different than what he remembered.

ran out of ideas for aspects there really, anyone have something else that might fit?

           
Skills

Superb:   Weapons, Scholarship
Great:     Athletics, Resources
Good:     Conviction, Endurance
Fair:       Presence, Stealth, Conviction
Average: Guns, Might, Rapport, Empathy, Investigation

Great: Deceit, Alertness, Lore, Survival (due to Wide Experience)

Stunts:
-1 Wall of Death

Powers
-2 Inhuman Speed
-1 Senses of the Wind Born, improved hearing, strange sense
-4 Wide Experience, applied to Deceit, Alertness, Lore, Survival
       You have extensive experience, and by extensive we mean not hundreds, but likely thousands of years. Due to this extensive experience, you may use your Scholarship at -1 instead of another skill for all uses of said skill. This power may only be taken for intellectual skills, or ones that can be learned purely intellectually, physical abilities require constant practice. You may take this Power multiple times, but no more than your Scholarship rating.

+2 Item of Power.  Wind Blade
It is what is is.  Weapon: 3
-2 Inhuman Speed, raises him to Supernatural effectively
-2 Inhuman Recovery
+1   Catch (dismemberment), ie, regeneration, no regrowth, beheading kills, etc

Would have to have found a way to fit in elementalist and the fast hands, but i just can't find the points for it to really do what i want,  i like the has a ton of knowledge from being alive so long....

I think he comes together as a decently playable character but could use some advise for a trouble and additional aspects...

[luminos]

Yeah, now that I look at it, the wide experience power makes me extremely uncomfortable.  If it was done as a stunt, it would only apply to a single trapping of a skill, and only under particular circumstances.  As it is, I wouldn't accept this power in any game I played in.  Also, your use of it breaks the rules for it that you have stated, as alertness is a non-intellectual skill, and survival is only debatably  so.

[Deadmanwalking]

Powers are way wider than Stunts, though. Look at A Few Seconds Ahead, which grants two entire Dodge trappings. Ad even Stunts can grant multiple trappings depending on the trapping in question, look at Cat Burglar. Combine that with the limit on what skills and how many you can take...


And this version only gives it to you at -1 (actually, that sounds better balanced to me than my original...) yeah, that helps a lot.


Though I do agree on Alertness being too physical for it to be used (it includes Initiative after all). survival's borderline, but not somethng that requires constant practice, so I'd definitely allow it. You have Conviction twice, though (at Good and Fair). I'd replace Alertness with Discipline as a Wide Experience skill and make do with Fair Alertness, personally.

[GruffAndTumble]

See p. 181 under Channeling itself: "You may gain more Item Slots as one of the options on the Refinement ability (page 182)—but you may only buy Refinement for that purpose."

Ah, that would be it. Thanks for the pointer.

[Barodahn]

Realistically speaking, with wide experience giving -1 and scholarship at 5, this gives 4 skills at rank 4.  This comes out to for a -4 power, gaining 16 skills points.  Other powers at -4 are true shape shifting, which lets you change shape, get +4 to two different skills, and lets you reshuffle skills points, or any of the supernatural tier, which gives such things at going first, +2 to all athletics or +4 when sprint, move two zones without penalty, etc.  I would say wide experience at -4 is a LESS powerful power then evocation or thaumaturgy, supernatural strength EASILY does more and gives more bonus's than 16 skills points. 

Having said that, 16 skills points is a lot, it is over half again the number of points given to a submerged character.  and this would of course get worse if you ever raised scholarship to say fantastic, you could get 6 skills at great, which would be 30 points for -6 refresh....

So I would say a bit of modification might be in order.  Perhaps limit it to HALF your scholarship in number of skills it can modify? 

[Barodahn]

Elementalist...isn't too bad, actually. The loss of the Focus Items really weakens it. Though I'm not at all sure it's necessary. Channeling serbes the same thematic purpose quite well. Elemental mastery doesn't look too bad either, though I'm a bit more worried about what allowing it would cause.

More ideas and reply (got busy reading the book since it finally got here...)

Thematically the reason i want elementalist (as opposed to just taking channeling) is because i wanted a way to have someone innately use a single element.  They don't think of it as an external thing, they would never think of making a focus item, or a an enchanted item, they just want the wind to move, or a fire to burst out and it does.  So to do that, i removed that portion of the power.

Now, a revision to earlier idea's.
Hyper speed.  
-1
You may spend a fate point to hyper accelerate your body beyond the normal bounds of speed.  You gain a +2 to your rolls in combat with fists or weapons if your athletics is higher than theirs.  This is to both attack and defense rolls, however, the + to attack does not translate to additional stress once you hit.  It simply enables you to get your attacks past their defenses and use your speed to avoid being hit.  As a result of over stressing you body, take 1 physical stress for every round this power was activated, you may take a consequence to alleviate this stress as normal.  Something like unbelievable pain, or wrenched every muscle in my body, torn ligaments, etc might be appropriate.

 (this could also be no fate point cost and +1/+1...)

Going to sit down and make some different version of this guy, which seems like the most interesting to play to you all? "Weapons + tons of knowledge", Weapons + Wind Evocation, or a simpler "Dear god he is good with weapons!!!!" ?

[wyvern]

Powers are way wider than Stunts, though. Look at A Few Seconds Ahead, which grants two entire Dodge trappings.

I think it's worth pointing out, here, that A Few Seconds Ahead isn't in YS.  It's not one of the core Powers; it's a special one-off thing designed for one particular NPC.  And, personally, I feel it's worth more than a measly -1 refresh - especially when you're talking about a PC level character who can (and, with access to a stunt like that, almost certainly will) put Lore at +5 (or +4 if that's their skill cap).

Maybe -2 refresh? For comparison, a mortal stunt that transplants a dodge trapping never even shifts the whole trapping (See the examples for giving guns dodging via a stunt, or footwork which adds ranged defense to fists - note in the second case that fists can already defend against melee attacks, so we're again only adding a limited subset of dodge.)  So -2 refresh for physical and social defense is still well ahead of the mortal stunt power curve.  (Especially when you count in that social defense is moving trappings from at least three different skills: Empathy, Rapport, and Discipline.)

While the stats of the various NPCs in the OW faces of the cases section do provide a nice reference, I don't really regard them as being strict canon - for example, Kumori is listed as not having Lawbreaker.