Fate 3.0 Rules Questions (not setting, mechanical questions on the system)

[The Codex]

Hi all,

So I have a couple of rules questions aout the fate system.

First is negative spin, I can't find anything in the rule ook aout what happens if you get a negative role
example: character with no fire arms skill and no fate points left picks up a revolver and fires, they role -4 on the fate dice and does this mean they just fail? or should this have much larger conitation, hand gun explodes/jams etc, where do I find this type of example in the rules and how would other ajudicate this.

Also on the matter of Consequences, if some one takes a serious physical consequence roken Ribs, the way I understand is the first tag against this is free. But if the goons fight the PCs have no fate points how do reflect on going that the character is in large amounts of pain, he surely does not go, ohhh my ribs, ut I can now run a marathon.....

All help is appreciated, I am really trying to get my head around this to run it...

[Tsunami]

See YS:192 "...there are no 'negative shifts'..."
If mundane actions fail, they just fail, no further punishment, at least not from the roll itself.
Spectacular failures like in other systems are handled through compels in the Fate system. If you complicate the life of a character, then he gets a fate point in return.
With spells it's different. See Fallout and Backlash.

@Consequences:
The GM can still compel the consequences, and should do so intensely. So if the character needs to run a marathon, give him a fate point and tell him that he can't.
If he just wants to run a marathon to self compel and milk fate points, and there are no repercussions from not running... tell him to go ahead, and then, if you're evil *g*, give him a fate point compelling him to go to the hospital due to excruciating pain and complications from broken ribs caused by trying to run a marathon. *g*

[The Codex]

Ok as a follow up to both points,

can the GM, if the player roles really badly in the gun fight example, compel, weapon jammed, or add a sticky aspect to represent the gun jam?
If the player trys to fire it with out clearing the jam would the damage then be done to the player as the gun explodes in his hand??? I am trying to work out how this would work.

Also in regard to the the consequence compels, can you add consequences to items, cars, swords, etc..... if they are treated badly or targeted specifically.


Cheers

[Papa Gruff]

Ok as a follow up to both points,

can the GM, if the player roles really badly in the gun fight example, compel, weapon jammed, or add a sticky aspect to represent the gun jam?
If the player trys to fire it with out clearing the jam would the damage then be done to the player as the gun explodes in his hand??? I am trying to work out how this would work.

I don't think that you can compel this way, as you have to compel aspects. Most newer guns don't malfunction that often in the first place. They are pretty reliable. Personally I wouldn't compel a good gunfighter as he is supposed to take good care of his gear. I'd probably only do it to wizards when they try to use newer guns by compelling their high concept and declaring that they might unintentionally hex the weapon. Basically if you can find an aspect on the character that might suggest that he is clumsy or simply bad with guns, only then can you compel him to have a weapons malfunction.

You can definitely (try to) create an aspect that you might then compel. But this is tricky and might create bad feelings at the table if you do it too often.

Also in regard to the the consequence compels, can you add consequences to items, cars, swords, etc..... if they are treated badly or targeted specifically.


Cheers

Aspects on items are problematic in some cases. In a scenario where the character picks up a really old or badly cared for gun from one of the goons, you could treat it as a "hidden" temporary aspect that the character pics up with the weapon. If he tries an assessment to check the guns functionality, the aspect (like BADLY GEARED or something) should be revealed. If not you can do the compel any time you want, revealing the aspect on compelling it.

[TheMouse]

FATE 3rd doesn't have any inherent critical failure mechanic. It doesn't matter if you roll -4 on the dice or end up with a really crappy effort. All that happens is that you fail. If you're in competition with someone else (a resisted roll, in other words), you rolling really poorly means that they're going to generate more shifts against you.

Rolling poorly resulting in an Aspect applied to you doesn't feel quite right to me. It's not the worst idea ever or anything. It just feels sort of like you're punishing someone because they rolled poorly, when rolling poorly already seems to me like punishment enough.

[The Codex]

ok so as a GM would this example be fair,

A feet water student player that has no skill with guns picks up a revolve to try and shoot the homeless crazy attacking his friend. He has no skill in fire arms so skill counts as Mediocre (+0), the character roles his fate dice and gets -, -, -, -, ohh dear.

So he clearly fails he shoot the target however can I then as GM offer him a compel for a sticky aspect on the gun, yes a fate point but theres a problem with the gun.

The player can then decide that he will have another go be damned, try and check the gun, or do something else.

If the player then decides to shoot the gun again can i offer him a compel for the gun to explode in his hand as the second round has hit the first stuck round?

Does this sound right other people?

[Deadmanwalking]

By default? No you can't offer him  Compels for any of that, unless there's some appropriate Aspect on him or the scene, he just misses. Badly, but he just misses.

Still, it isn't actually too hard to find Aspects that can be used for such Compels if you look hard enough.

[The Codex]

Ok then my brain is suffering.

and maybe its because i am trying to learn fate so i can teach my players.

How would a FATE GM who actually knows the system deal with things like faulty equipment, would you even be in that position.

How do things like compels work on an injured player, eg i have broken ribs and still the player wants to fight, what do i do compel him for a minus to his dice pool, i don't feel thats in the spirit of the game. So would i compel him to lie there groaning in pain. i need some help here as i think i am not understanding the system properly.

i have read all the examples but obviously still don't get it.....

[Deadmanwalking]

Faulty equipment? Well, actual faulty equipment would have Aspects like, well, "Faulty" that can be compelled. But whether equipment is faulty would be decided in advance (maybe based on Resources or Contacts rolls to acquire it) not on the spot as a result of a single bad roll.

As for Consequences, you'd likely Compel to eliminate certain courses of action. Like Compelling "Broken Leg" or "Sprained Ankle" to keep the character from moving zones. Something like "Broken Ribs" probably won't get Compelled it will get Invoked by opponents to give them a +2. That's where the 'wound penalties' function of Consequences comes in.

[The Codex]

Ok, I understand the concept of faulty equipment having that tag, if i was from a failed role to find said equipment or haggle for it. How ever what about a gun jamming type senario. or a weapon malfunction. Like a flame thrower. How do you tag/aspect/compel for that.

Again I completely get the whole concept of leg type injury lowering zone movment. Or a Arm injury raising the difficulty for a might check. But in regard to the crack ribs, thats going to hurt like hell and lets say our goons attacking do not have any fate points to compel against the player for +2, does that mean the player gets off scott free. as in yep i have craked ribs but theres no penelties for mean even hough he has just taken it as a serious consequence!!!!!

[Deadmanwalking]

Ok, I understand the concept of faulty equipment having that tag, if i was from a failed role to find said equipment or haggle for it. How ever what about a gun jamming type senario. or a weapon malfunction. Like a flame thrower. How do you tag/aspect/compel for that.

As a rule, in DFRPG, things don't malfunction like that unless there's a reason for them to (ie: an Aspect of some sort). A gun jamming might also just be an explanation for a low roll if you assume they have it un-jammed by the next round.

Again I completely get the whole concept of leg type injury lowering zone movment. Or a Arm injury raising the difficulty for a might check. But in regard to the crack ribs, thats going to hurt like hell and lets say our goons attacking do not have any fate points to compel against the player for +2, does that mean the player gets off scott free. as in yep i have craked ribs but theres no penelties for mean even hough he has just taken it as a serious consequence!!!!!

"Cracked Ribs" are a Moderate Consequence at worst, IMO. Also, don't forget the free tag that someone gets for putting an Aspect on someone else. I mean, a +2 on their next attack after inflicting a Consequence is a pretty damn good advantage in a fight. Believe me.

[The Codex]

Thank you for your help deadman 

so just taking one more quick pass at this. could I make an NPC decleration, assesment that the gun is jammed, forceing the player to do a manuever (gun skill check to remove the offending round) to clear the gun for firing. Would this also be the way I could assess/declare out of ammo on a player, or a player on an NPC? (something like counting the rounds).

For the ribs thing would you then say that the fee tag they get in combat first time is enough. Lets just say for example that my player has created the ultimate toughness meat head and has inhuman toughness and is waring armour (i know this is getting extreme but just trying to make a point) and the gang of NPCs want to make the most of kicking the snot out of the player. They get a free tag for the next atack from one mook. But as low level NPCs they don't get fate points so how does the fact that the player has craked ribs/broken spine/benfit them in combat surely it must?

I can't believe if the player has been really kicked in that he has taken the consequence that after the next shot he can defend himself normally. or would you compel him not to defend hmself because of the pain, or would you recommend he conceeds, or some other variatin, just need a veiw point on what to do.

[Deadmanwalking]

Thank you for your help deadman 

No problem, I'm always happy to help. 

so just taking one more quick pass at this. could I make an NPC decleration, assesment that the gun is jammed, forceing the player to do a manuever (gun skill check to remove the offending round) to clear the gun for firing. Would this also be the way I could assess/declare out of ammo on a player, or a player on an NPC? (something like counting the rounds).

Assessment? Probably not. Declaration? Absolutely, and that's a fun and useful idea.

For the ribs thing would you then say that the fee tag they get in combat first time is enough. Lets just say for example that my player has created the ultimate toughness meat head and has inhuman toughness and is waring armour (i know this is getting extreme but just trying to make a point) and the gang of NPCs want to make the most of kicking the snot out of the player. They get a free tag for the next atack from one mook. But as low level NPCs they don't get fate points so how does the fact that the player has craked ribs/broken spine/benfit them in combat surely it must?

Well, if he's taking Consequences (especially Moderate or worse Consequences...and shaking off Minor Consequences makes sense) from mooks who don't have Fate Ponts odds are VERY good (approaching 100% actually) that his Stress Boxes are mostly full and he'll take additional Consequences from anything that gets through his armor...which a hit beefed up by a free +2 is quite likely to do. And then the next guy can tag the new Consequence...and so on and so forth. I suggest playing through a few sample combats before thinking this doesn't work. I think you'll find that it works out very well indeed in play.

I can't believe if the player has been really kicked in that he has taken the consequence that after the next shot he can defend himself normally. or would you compel him not to defend hmself because of the pain, or would you recommend he conceeds, or some other variatin, just need a veiw point on what to do.

See above. The free Tag realy is enough.

[The Codex]

ye gods I am dumb.... 

Of course so they will keep getting over his stress trake forcing another consequence which can be free tagged....

I now believe I begin to understnad where i am going wrong.

On a slightly different tangent. But still rules based. I have a group of all mortals who hunt creatures of a supernatrual nature.....(Think "if you can find them....")

Anyway Crafting allows you to build items of quality for example, but can you use craft to build items for effect as you do for magic crafting as long as it is within reason.

examples could be:

A grenade pack that lets of light (effectivly fufilling the Catch of Vamps/think blade)
A drug cocktail that acts like Harrys coffee potion
Memo armour suit that is flexible but has better armour rating, like Harrys Duster (Batman suit)

basicly can I make potions and enchanted items that are not magical in nature but would level the playoing field of mortals.

A could cannon example would be Kincaids Pig sticker....

[Papa Gruff]

Sure you can make something like Kincaids spear, or his garlic paintball gun, or get dragonbreath rounds for your shotgun, but they wont work like a potion (in most cases anyways). To get such an item you can a) craft it your self with the crafting skill or b) try to buy it from somebody who makes it using the recourses skill. Perhaps you'll need your connections skill in order to find someone who is willing to make it for you.

When you have acquired the item of your desire it still remains mainly flavor to the game. The most it can do is satisfy the catch of your supernatural opponent (witch is pretty huge actually). It basically comes down on what you can declare, since declares are the death of situational modifiers (as stated in YW). You declare you have something. You declare it the way that it is capable of putting an temporary aspect on you and bang: +2 modifier (on free tag and then every time for a fate point).

In the example of your coffee/drug cocktail this would work very nicely. Kincaids spear would probably be a mix of weapon and gun, allowing for defense and attack with weapons or guns skill (witch ever is higher). Pretty cool.