Taking Social Consequences as Backlash?

[Nomad]

Let me remind you one guy: Johnny Marcone. Sure he knows how to handle a gun or a knife but do you seriously believe those make him that dangerous?

[Steed]

So social heavy characters are basically just as powerful as physical heavy characters, just in a different way.

Some social-heavy characters might even consider themselves more powerful than the big bruisers.  After all, from their perspective, who is the more powerful?  The guy who takes some damage while punching you through walls...or the guy who comes away from a conflict the clear victor without a single punch ever being thrown?  I can tell you how Lara Raith (and Nomad's example, Marcone) would answer.

ETA:  Of course, the physical character will likely tell you that the annoyance you drove away in frustration can come back to punch you in the throat, while the dude they knocked out and threw into a dumpster won't be around for awhile.

[Nomad]

Actually in FATE, any character who has strong attacks for a Track can be considered Deadly.
Physically, you can beat him to get to your objective.
Socially you can intimidate or sweet talk him amd get to your objective.
Mentally you can just put him to sleep and tip-toe past him.
There isn't a perfect or right way to do it. Any of them works in the end. (Thou I would say Social or Mental would be less problematic than pure bruteness as they won't end in visits from Police later.)

(On a relative note, Molly is going to be very very scary.

(click to show/hide)

She basically used mental attacks to daze/disorient about a 1000 vamps, half vamps, servants and the like in the Maya fight. And she is a "weak" apprentice

)

[Steed]

Actually in FATE, any character who has strong attacks for a Track can be considered Deadly.
Physically, you can beat him to get to your objective.
Socially you can intimidate or sweet talk him amd get to your objective.
Mentally you can just put him to sleep and tip-toe past him.
There isn't a perfect or right way to do it. Any of them works in the end. (Thou I would say Social or Mental would be less problematic than pure bruteness as they won't end in visits from Police later.)

(On a relative note, Molly is going to be very very scary.

(click to show/hide)

She basically used mental attacks to daze/disorient about a 1000 vamps, half vamps, servants and the like in the Maya fight. And she is a "weak" apprentice

)

The bolded bit is also very, very true.  As to the spoiler

(click to show/hide)

damn straight she is.  Give her another decade and she will be terrifying.

[Ophidimancer]

Ok, so we've established that Social heavy characters are basically as dangerous as Physical heavy characters, and that the Social Stress track is just as viable a point of attack.  So pointing out the fact that it's a non-Physical, non-Mental track and thus not as valuable in the game is not a good argument for not allowing backlash to be taken as Social Stress.

Pointing out that it's an additional Stress track and thus allows for more backlash to be taken is a valid argument, however.  Do you think allowing a bit more room for Backlash is unbalancing?

[Nomad]

I think the answer is "it depends" again. Some kinds of magic (like veils, utility spells) are probably mare viable to give social backlash than, say a fireblast.

The again, you might let the player take a 4 shift backlash as a mild physical and then a mild social on top of the physical. Just be sure to use that social consequence instead of letting it slide as a freebie to keep the game balance.

It really depends on the scene and the nood of the game.

[luminos]

actually, you have to take all of your backlash as the same kind of stress, so even if you let them take social backlash, you can't combine it with physical. 

Its not a question of whether or not social is as viable form of attack as physical, its a question of whether social is a form of attack you can expect in circumstances where magic is being used.  If its not as common to use magic in social circumstances as it is to use it in physical circumstances, then always allowing social backlash is unbalanced and a bit toothless.

[CMEast]

If its not as common to use magic in social circumstances as it is to use it in physical circumstances, then always allowing social backlash is unbalanced and a bit toothless.

Allowing social stress isn't so good (unless it's a social situation perhaps) but why not allow a social consequence? That was the original question and I personally don't see any harm in that.

[Nomad]

Err... excume me but these stories always revolve around Harry, you know the pyromaniac, stubborn, intimidating, socially inept at best, evoker don't they?
I think it is a bit wrong to say "If its not as common to use magic in social circumstances as it is to use it in physical circumstances".

Anyway If the guy has an extra social stress track, I could see myself letting him soak some backlash from combat now and then as a social consequence depending on the scene. Correction, I meant extra social consequence. Sorry for mixing those 2.

*Now that I think about it, a character with extra social and physical stress consequence again wrong terminology.. slots would be very very rare. (It requires a +5 skill and a totally unrelated themed stunt at the very least? And this guy is a caster too...). I suppose for such a character, I could let him eat 2 mild consequences (p and s) as GM word... (As I am going to abuse that social consequence and/or not let it go for some time. )

[Ophidimancer]

If its not as common to use magic in social circumstances as it is to use it in physical circumstances, then always allowing social backlash is unbalanced and a bit toothless.

But we've just established that using social attacks is just as viable a way to take someone out as using physical or mental attacks.  Unless you're in some sort of duel where you are constrained to only do one sort of thing, I don't see why any one category of attacks would be less common than another.  If anything, magic and mental attacks is probably the least common of all types of attacks, because it's not an option that normals have.

[Ophidimancer]

Allowing social stress isn't so good

Why not?  It's not that I disagree necessarily, but what's your reasoning?

[Nomad]

Ophidimancer: You have never been nagged to submission by female family members / friends have you?

[luminos]

A consequence is a consequence is a consequence. So as long as they aren't taking any kind of stress to go with that social consequence, there is nothing extremely unbalanced about it.  The only difference that kind of distinction makes is when a character has apex Presence, which given most wizards, isn't a concern.  If the social consequence is taken as a way to rob the enemies of a way to tag a useful consequence in the middle of combat, then its obviously not kosher, but otherwise it makes absolutely no difference whether its a social consequence or a physical one.

But we've just established that using social attacks is just as viable a way to take someone out as using physical or mental attacks.  Unless you're in some sort of duel where you are constrained to only do one sort of thing, I don't see why any one category of attacks would be less common than another.  If anything, magic and mental attacks is probably the least common of all types of attacks, because it's not an option that normals have.

Unless you have a very flexible GM, social skills won't be usable as direct attacks during a fight scene.  All I am saying is that the circumstances where you get backlash are typically going to be the kind of scenes where the only kind of backlash that matters is physical and mental.  Physical because that kind of stress will help your enemies beat you up, and mental because that kind of stress will hinder your primary mode of combat.  Social stress that just goes away after the fight is over doesn't actually feel like a downside to magic, and magic needs tangible downsides or its just an I win kind of thing.

[Ophidimancer]

A consequence is a consequence is a consequence.

All Stress isn't the same, though, right?

Unless you have a very flexible GM, social skills won't be usable as direct attacks during a fight scene.

Harry uses his Intimidation in fights all the time.  He pisses his enemies off so they make mistakes, and I think I even remember times when he's managed to bluff his enemies off the scene of a fight, Taking them Out with Social stress.

All I am saying is that the circumstances where you get backlash are typically going to be the kind of scenes where the only kind of backlash that matters is physical and mental.  Physical because that kind of stress will help your enemies beat you up, and mental because that kind of stress will hinder your primary mode of combat.  Social stress that just goes away after the fight is over doesn't actually feel like a downside to magic, and magic needs tangible downsides or its just an I win kind of thing.

Ok, but what about Social Stress that takes you out of a fight?

[Nomad]

"Ok, but what about Social Stress that takes you out of a fight?"

That is a bit more iffy. I guess you can fight some to get to a standstill then use social attacks (intimidate, presence) to make the guy go away but that won't happen in most cases. Either you will knock him out or he will knock you out in most fights.