(Rules Questions) Negative Refresh: Roleplay & Mechanics

[Nomad]

Negative respect equals being predictable when long term planning is not an issue.
Remember the scene on Demonreach where Harry and Sanya and Michael assaulted all of the Denerians? Now this is pure guesswork but I would say Nick is somewhere about -1 or 3 at most while Tessa's faction would be around -5 or much much less (like the rhino analog guy. don't have book with me, the one elder gruff killed). When they had to act on instict, they all acted predictably and Tessa did what she always does, backstabbed her husband

In game mechanic terms, the more negative refresh your enemy has, the more stuff you can pin on him (tags, compels, free invokes) so that "YOU" control the encounter instead of random dice rolls.

[Chris M]

Yeah, until the NPC buys off his negative, he has no FATE points. If Niccodemus is compel, sure he gets a FATE point. Now he's only 17 in the hole, rather than 18 or whatever.

It's pretty simple. Heavyweights like Mab and such never, never get FATE points. She has no free will at all. She is waht she is. Same with BCV and RCV. They are what they are. They're not resisting they're aspects. Unless maybe they buy them off with a whole lotta compels.

[DFJunkie]

Yeah, until the NPC buys off his negative, he has no FATE points. If Niccodemus is compel, sure he gets a FATE point. Now he's only 17 in the hole, rather than 18 or whatever.

That really isn't supported in the text.  NPCs with 0 or lower refresh don't start the session with fate points, but the section on NPCs and fate points goes into several examples of such NPCs earning them through play.  If you want to houserule that negative refresh NPCs start with negative fate points they need to buy off before usable ones will accumulate that's fine, but it's still a houserule. 

[Deadmanwalking]

Check YS p. 329. That is in fact, exactly how it works by the official rules.

[CableRouter]

Check YS p. 329. That is in fact, exactly how it works by the official rules.

  I confused, the only time the word refresh appears on YS p.329 is "If you want to make a really powerful adversary, you may need to give the NPC  additional refresh and skill points, as per character advancement (page 88).", the words fate, invoke and compel don't appear at all.

[Deadmanwalking]

I'm sorry, I was skimming my previous post and referenced the wrong page. My bad.



I meant YS p. 351. Specifically:

"...as truly monstrous opponents will often start the game with no fate points due to negative refresh and require “on-camera” compels before receiving them."

Though looking at it again, I guess that's less definitive than I was remembering it as. Maybe you're right...

[DFJunkie]

It would be nice if we had an example of someone like Mavra gaining refresh through compels, or if they clarified the issue. 

Another reason I don't think the NPCs need to make up some sort of debt is that Our World only gives the NPCs total refresh costs which are relevant for balancing opposition to the PCs and not net refresh which is only mechanically relevant if you need to figure out when they pay off their negatives and start gaining points.

[Chris M]

It think it's just one of those things where they think it's clear, so didn't clarify. I mean, to me, there's a big honking negative sign in front of their refresh number. I just assumed that meant that they had negative refresh, with all of the resulting math that comes with that and whatnot, ya know?

I don't think it's really a play issue. People with negative refresh not having access to FATE points is the backbone of Dresden. I mean, why make PCs without refresh into NPCs if they can just easily get FATE like it ain't no thang?

[Kordeth]

I'm sorry, I was skimming my previous post and referenced the wrong page. My bad.



I meant YS p. 351. Specifically:

"...as truly monstrous opponents will often start the game with no fate points due to negative refresh and require “on-camera” compels before receiving them."

Though looking at it again, I guess that's less definitive than I was remembering it as. Maybe you're right...

It's rather more explicit on p. 333, in the sidebar "What's the Base?"

Assume that any main NPC is going to have a base refresh equal to a PC (accounting for milestones and the like). If you spend over that, they have no fate points when they start play.

No fate points. Not negative fate points.

[Deadmanwalking]

Hmmm. I guess you're right. I stand corrected.

Never let it be said I'm not willing to admit when I'm wrong. 



That said, making negative Fate Points free compels seems a perfectly valid house rule, at least to me.

[Archmage_Cowl]

i'm not sure where i read it, but i'm pretty sure i read somewhere in the books that -
"if a creature has negative refresh they have given into their nature and cannot resist compels, as compels are to act in line with your nature. They can still gain fate points but they cannot spend them to resist compels."

Then again maybe i just imagined reading that lol. Oh well thats how i've been running negative refresh creatures.

[DFJunkie]

That said, making negative Fate Points free compels seems a perfectly valid house rule, at least to me.

No doubt.  I mean, sure the PCs start with fate points, er, fate point.  As in one, because they're not morons and spent all their refresh.  It does seem somewhat unfair that someone who is fifteen points in the hole only acts a little more in tune with their nature than a free-willed PC.

I'd say that viable houserules could be:
1) Negative refresh NPCs gain fate points as normal, but cannot refuse compels until they have accumulated a number of fate points equal to their net negative refresh (this will require assigning refresh totals to the NPCs statted out in OW, since it only tells you how much they spent, not how much they overspent).
2) Negative refresh NPCs do not gain fate points at all until they've paid off their debt.  
3) Negative refresh NPCs must pay more than one fate point to buy out of compels.

I'm leaning towards using 3) in my games to see how it goes.  I'll assume everyone starts out as Submerged (so subtract 10 from their spent refresh).  If they are between 0 and -5 they buy out of compels as normal. From between -6 and -10 it will cost them 2 fate points to buy out of a compel.  From -11 to -15 it will cost 3, and creatures who are more than sixteen points in the hole can't buy out at all.

It is also possible that I will restrict the higher costs to compels against an NPCs high concept.  

[Deadmanwalking]

No doubt.  I mean, sure the PCs start with fate points, er, fate point.  As in one, because they're not morons and spent all their refresh.

Huh? I have a single PC who's at 1 Refresh, and most of the rest at two or so, with a Pure Mortal at 5. I haven't noticed a meaningful dischotomy in abilities between said characters. Well, the Pure Mortal's a little fragile, but he's also one of the most effective comabtants (Superb Guns with military grade weaponry and a specialty in knowing Catches is scary).

I agree with the rest of your post (more or less, I incline towards #2 myself), but anyone with Refresh above 1 being a moron is just a ridiculous statement.

[Chris M]

Nah. I mean, if Mab, with -30 fate points or whatever, can get a FATE point for ANY reason and use it resist a compel, then that's just bad design that's contrary to the intro stuff about free will and FATE.

No reason to not let my players play -40 refresh characters. They have free will; they just have to do one thing in accordance with their beliefs and then they get their free will back, in the form of a FATE point.

That's silly. I'd go further and say that not only is it a good house rule, but that Evil hat dropped the ball in design terms.

Never let it be said that I don't think I know better than everyone else.