(Rules Questions) Negative Refresh: Roleplay & Mechanics

[Janus Node]

OK, so I'm starting up a new RPG group on Dresden Files RPG pretty soon, and I was reviewing the rules as GM.  As I work on my cheat sheet notes, I found that I was having trouble finding guidelines on how exactly negative refresh affected NPCs.  Yes, I understand that it keeps the characters from gaining Fate points without taking compels, but how is 0 Refresh of someone that's just gone over the edge different than the -30 Refresh of an Outsider Assassin?  Is it just a matter of roleplay, or is there a mechanics note I'm missing?

Now, if I'm not just missing something (which I admit is quite possible), I'm trying to think of some mechanics to help me as a GM keep things level.  Here's my ideas so far:

• Extra Trouble Slots - With the sacrifice of mortal will you get more and more trouble the crops up in your existence.  0 is just a being that has just lost free will, -1 to -5 is your first extra trouble, -6 to -15 could be the next slot, and so on.  These represent not only the extra opportunities for compels, but the need for the being to be driven by things other than choices the make for themselves.  (examples: Loathing of own Mortality, Always Second Best, and Need for Affirmation)
• Refresh Repayment - This is a bit more of a book-keeping issue; instead of starting with refresh points you can spend, you have debt points that have to be worked off with compels.  It could be on a 1-for-1 basis or some other increment (I could see as going as high as 1 debt for every -5).
• Skill Blindspots - When you give up on living life as a journey and instead devote yourself to power so much that you lose sight of what makes you a person, you also lose sight of the importance for certain life skills.  Pay off negative refresh with negative skill ranks; you can have as many skills as you want at -1 (Poor), but they have to be equal or greater than the skills you have at -2 (Terrible), which have to be equal or greater than the skills you have at -3 (Abysmal).  -3 would be the limit of the negative range.
• Or any combination of those three!

Please keep in mind, this is just me brainstorming as I work and would very much like to hear thoughts or corrections from others.  If there's something I've missed in the book, please let me know the page number.  If there's another topic that covers this, I'd love to read it.  And if you think these ideas have merit or could use some additions/alterations/corrections, then I'd love to hear that also!

[Belial666]

It's simple, really. A negative refresh being has no Fate points. At all. They can't even get new Fate points from compels. And because of that, they can't invoke their aspects for benefits and can't exercise free will by bying off compels or taking advantage of other aspects.

[Papa Gruff]

It's simple, really. A negative refresh being has no Fate points. At all. They can't even get new Fate points from compels. And because of that, they can't invoke their aspects for benefits and can't exercise free will by bying off compels or taking advantage of other aspects.

I have to disagree on that. In my opinion even a negative refresh being will have fate points that it can spend. They totally can get them out of compels and they totally can spend them on invokes. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense at all mechanic wise to stat NPC with aspects (or even stunts that use fate) as they only would give them further weak points with no benefits.

All what spend refresh on a NPC does is, that it provides you with an indicator on how powerful it is in comparison to other NPC and the PC. Remember that spend refresh is not equal to base refresh or adjusted refresh. What you do as a GM is think about what amount of base refresh would be appropriate for the NPC at the given moment. Take the refresh the PC have into account and keep track of the compels you make towards an important NPC during your scenario.

Again: Power levels simply doesn't apply to NPC. Not giving fate points to NPC can lead to really really imbalance situations where the PC will own the NPC just because of fate points. 

[luminos]

all those options look useful, but I usually just treat it as the character has no ability to get fate points unless he gets a lot of compels from the PC's, and he has to accept all compels other characters use against one of his aspects.  One thing to keep in mind is that the refresh available for NPC's is different from the refresh available to the PC's.  The Senior Council of the White Council, for instance, can easily be statted up with 30 points in powers and still be considered to be in the positives for refresh.

[Belial666]

I was talking about the nonhuman NPCs. The human NPCs (including wizards) have a refresh slightly higher than their cost total. That's usually 1-2 points for wizards and 4-5 points for mortals. And then they'd follow the same rules as PCs.

[Papa Gruff]

I was talking about the nonhuman NPCs. The human NPCs (including wizards) have a refresh slightly higher than their cost total. That's usually 1-2 points for wizards and 4-5 points for mortals. And then they'd follow the same rules as PCs.

So just to clarify: In your opinion something like a BCV or any kind of vamp for that matter don't get fate points? Low level Fey don't get fate points? Mythical creatures don't get fate points?

The only thing i'd might be convinced to agree on would be basic animals, as it isn't even that important if they have fate points to spend or not. In my opinion the points are such a fundamental mechanic in this system that it is highly problematic to cut anything out of having some.

[Janus Node]

Right, OK, so from the way I'm reading it most people are just using the negative refresh as an RP guideline and not as a hard mechanic.  And that's fine and makes sense to me; I'm just interested to see how folks are handling it and working things in their games.

As for mortals with negative refresh, I was given to understand from the book that it was very possible and likely that wizards and even vanilla mortals could "Go Negative".  Like the obsessed wizard that sells themselves to the pursuit of Ultimate Power (very Doctor Doom), or the mortal businessman that becomes a financial juggernaut that is dead inside (almost a bit Citizen Kane).  Am I wrong?

[Papa Gruff]

As for mortals with negative refresh, I was given to understand from the book that it was very possible and likely that wizards and even vanilla mortals could "Go Negative".  Like the obsessed wizard that sells themselves to the pursuit of Ultimate Power (very Doctor Doom), or the mortal businessman that becomes a financial juggernaut that is dead inside (almost a bit Citizen Kane).  Am I wrong?

You are quite right. If a PC goes below 1 adjusted refresh he automatically becomes a NPC and the player has to hand in his sheet. Of cause this will very really happen, as it is (or should be?) almost impossible for a player to go below 1, if he doesn't decide to. 

[Janus Node]

Right, indeed that it should be a deal breaker if a PC does it.  I just am thinking things out from an NPC creation standpoint as a GM.  I'm seeing it in my minds eye like an Essence System from Shadowrun, but with powers and abilities instead of cyberware.  You exceed your "allowance" and it's like you've taken a shortcut that you never should have gone for.

[luminos]

As for mortals with negative refresh, I was given to understand from the book that it was very possible and likely that wizards and even vanilla mortals could "Go Negative".  Like the obsessed wizard that sells themselves to the pursuit of Ultimate Power (very Doctor Doom), or the mortal businessman that becomes a financial juggernaut that is dead inside (almost a bit Citizen Kane).  Am I wrong?

Yes, pure mortals can go negative refresh, but when you are dealing with NPC mortals, what negative refresh means is different in every circumstance.  The base refresh level of every pure mortal outside of the PC's is likely to be different, so grunts will have a base refresh of 3 or so, and some really powerful humans can have a base refresh in 20's or even 30's (in the case of very long lived wizards, for instance) without losing themselves in their nature.

So just to clarify: In your opinion something like a BCV or any kind of vamp for that matter don't get fate points? Low level Fey don't get fate points? Mythical creatures don't get fate points?

Yes.  Monsters are so tightly bound to their natures that it doesn't make sense for the free will mechanic to work in their favor.

[Papa Gruff]

Yes.  Monsters are so tightly bound to their natures that it doesn't make sense for the free will mechanic to work in their favor.

Ok. If this is the case, why stat them monsters with aspects? The reason you give supports that they are always compelled to act upon their monstrous nature...

I guess it again comes down on how you interpret the rules. To me, anything even remotely resembling a sentient being should have access to fate points. At least this is how I'm handling it in our game, as I see no real reason for them not having the points. It just would be such a huge imbalance if the players have them and the monsters don't. Perhaps I'm understanding you all wrong though, as I have a huge headake at the moment

[KOFFEYKID]

I believe NPCs with negative refresh can have fate points, they just dont start with any.

So at the beginning of a scenario the guy with a -10 adjusted refresh doesn't gain any fate points (unlike the PCs, who have a positive refresh, and gain fate points equal to their adjusted refresh). This doesn't mean that they cant ever get them through compels.

[Janus Node]

heh, sorry for causing the headaches, as that wasn't my intent.  But here's where I'm reading things so far:

Monsters (non-sentient):  Minimal or no Fate Points, perhaps something that shows the limited nature of a creature vs. a sentient (even if they are without free will) being.
Sentient NPC with Negative Refresh:  A sentient being that is driven by basic nature instead of choices that make variation.  Could be a low powered person that has reached too far without proper self-awareness, or a high powered person that has sold their soul for cosmic power.
Sentient NPC with Positive Refresh (or a PC):  A person that has the ability to go beyond basic nature and more easily affect their world, at the cost of taking the slow route in developing their strengths.  Can be a normal mortal person or a powerful being that has chosen to maintain balance in what they can do and who they are.

Sound about right?


And I agree on the not getting any Fate at the start, I'm just wondering if there's any functional difference then between 0 and -20.  Both would get no refresh at the start, but there doesn't seem to be any other penalty the further down you go.

EDIT: (addendum) With all that's been discussed, to people see negative Refresh as any sort of roleplay guideline?  Original WoD had a number of "Humanity" scales across their titles, but here Refresh does not seem to be about "Good & Evil" as much as it has to do with "Nature vs. Choice".

[Papa Gruff]

EDIT: (addendum) With all that's been discussed, to people see negative Refresh as any sort of roleplay guideline?  Original WoD had a number of "Humanity" scales across their titles, but here Refresh does not seem to be about "Good & Evil" as much as it has to do with "Nature vs. Choice".

I'd say it definitely can be a roleplay guideline, but only if you want it to be. Personally I'd applaud a low refresh level wizard PC being played as if he has to struggle against the temptation of using his powers for the wrong cause. Yet if the player not decides to set up the character that way I'm fine with that too.

You are right with the last statement. More "Nature vs. Choice" then "Good vs. Evil".

PS: Don't worry about the headake ... was due to dehydration. Is much better now .

[Wordmaker]

I'm fairly lax when it comes to negative Refresh on NPCs. Obviously those characters are more a slave to their natures than others, but that's a roleplay thing, not a mechanic. I allow NPCs to gain Fate Points based on how important they'll be to the game.

A major villain, clearly acting in accordance with his dark nature, will gain many Fate Points before a final confrontation with the PCs, so as to be an appropriate challenge for the climax.

But I definitely wouldn't rule that NPCs with negative Refresh could never gain Fate Points. It even states in Your Story that powerful villains might start with no Fate Points due to their Refresh level, but that they can gain them as the scenario plays out.