The Laws of Magic and non-mortal casters

[Belial666]

A few things to consider;


1) A wizard killing a human gets Lawbreaker. A wizard killing a nonhuman does not. Why? Do they believe any less in killing with magic? Would they destroy any less of a person if they burned Thomas to ashes or ripped Lily's heart out of her chest?
2) A wizard using mind-magic gets Lawbreaker. Molly believed that what she was doing, using her magic to help someone else, was good. She did not know of the damage it could do to others so there is no way that factored into her beliefs. So why, exactly, is she more monstrous for believing in something when, to her knowledge, it had no drawbacks at all?
3) Let's look at Kumori. Lawbreaker - Fifth. She believes that death is something one should fight against and ultimately conquer. And she is more monstrous for it. Come again? Isn't that what thousands upon thousands of doctors all around the planet are trying to do? Isn't it there in a certain book that death was not part of the plan, is a very bad thing, and it will be ultimately conquered?


Lawbreaker has less to do with believing in what you are doing - that it should and must be done - than in believing in the subversion of the purpose of magic itself. To violate any of the Seven Laws, you reach out with the powers of Life - the magic of this world - and do something with them they are not made to do, turning them against their purpose. And you have to believe - absolutely - that misusing life itself should and must be done. It doesn't matter if you are doing something noble and good - Life was not meant to forcibly rearrange someone's mind so you are misusing it. Life was obviously not made to kill and Life was not intended to be used in corrupting its physical vessels into other forms that don't work and can't support it. And it was not meant to upset the order of the Universe by manipulating death, time and anything beyond this reality either.


So, you use mortal magic to do things it was not meant to do and you believe they should be done? Lawbreaker. You use powers other than mortal magic to do such things and their nature is not opposed to them? No Lawbreaker.

[ahunting]

Kemmlerian Necromancy is really the exception when Sponsored magic is concerned. It is the only sponsored magic which straight up requires you to already be a FULL WIZARD. Really its just a specialization of an existing magical Skill. Where Seelie/unseelie magic, the power sources is the fae, and there for doesn't actually require your character to believe in the evil act they are committing, they only have to believe in fairies. Kemmlerian Necromancy is actually just shifting your power source from life to death, and if your ready to get on that band wagon making you throw a little harder. It still requires the belief component and thus still leads to the breaching of the laws of magic.
 To be fair on this topic I am certain a Warden who sees a Kemmlerian enhanced spell is gonna try and kill you  just for that. He/she isn't really going to stop and ask themselves has this death power wizard actually really killed someone with his evil Death magic?
 

[Deadmanwalking]

1. This has to do with the simple fact that, nice folks though they might be, Thomas and Lily are not human, and are not percieved as such. They're, not to put too fine a point on it, monsters. One preys on humanity, and neither think, react, or are truly, in any meanigful sense, human. That's clear just talking to Lily, and abundantly clear if you get to know Thomas (who tries to be human...but can't always manage it). They're people, and possibly not deserving of death, but on some level, most people killing them aren't going to consider them such any more than Harry thinks of Ghouls as human.

Now, if Harry killed Thomas with magic, I'd give him Lawbreaker, because he thinks of Thomas as a human being no matter how much the evidence disagrees. I'd give someone who murdered one of the Red Court thinking they were human Lawbreaker as well. It's a crime of intent, like Attempted Murder on a dead man.

2. Sure. But why do her motives matter? She reached out and she changed things, warped human minds to be who and what she wished them to be. That...changes someone. She is now the kind of person who believes that they can do that. Just a bit closer to the kind of person who does so casually and for their own convenience.

3. Again, intent maters in the sense of intent to break the Law, not what you indend to achieve with that breaking. Motive is meaningless, it's deciding to do it that matters. And she's not necessarily more monstrous...she's the kind of person who thinks she knows better than the rest of the universe who should live and die. She's slowly succumbing to Hubris, but Lawbreaker doesn't necessarily make you evil, it twists your nature to fit the Law you broke. Kumori's Aspects are likely all twisted by now as she grows more and more obsessed with her goal of ending death, and all her Aspects reflect that. Is she a monster? Maybe, it depends on one's pont of view, but she's not who she was before she started breaking the Law.


And I disagree, but even assuming you're right: Barring Outsider magic, isn't all magic at heart part of the same thing? Wouldn't all of it feel or be equally subverted by something that goes against the nature of itself? Regardless of source, it's all the world's natural magic, isn't it?

[ahunting]

A few things to consider;

1) A wizard killing a human gets Lawbreaker. A wizard killing a nonhuman does not. Why? Do they believe any less in killing with magic? Would they destroy any less of a person if they burned Thomas to ashes or ripped Lily's heart out of her chest?
2) A wizard using mind-magic gets Lawbreaker. Molly believed that what she was doing, using her magic to help someone else, was good. She did not know of the damage it could do to others so there is no way that factored into her beliefs. So why, exactly, is she more monstrous for believing in something when, to her knowledge, it had no drawbacks at all?
3) Let's look at Kumori. Lawbreaker - Fifth. She believes that death is something one should fight against and ultimately conquer. And she is more monstrous for it. Come again? Isn't that what thousands upon thousands of doctors all around the planet are trying to do? Isn't it there in a certain book that death was not part of the plan, is a very bad thing, and it will be ultimately conquered?

If a character uses magic to kill a monster it doesn't warp his immortal soul. This is a foundation of the game. If Thomas under the effects of his demon goes charging down to kill say Molly and she blows him to little pieces I wouldn't give her player lawbreaker. If Lilly who is now an Sidhe and there for an immortal creature of Life gone wild, while in under orders of her queen is forced to blow up some folks, I don't really have an issue with a wizard defending themselves blasting her with magic (Not that such a thing is likely).

Wizards that us Psychomancy to force someone to act and/or feel in a certain way get law breaker. We saw the merlin us telepathy he didn't get law breaker. One the 2nd point Just because you think something has no draw back doesn't mean that it still not wrong. Every action has reaction, the result of those folks having their mind twisted left one of them permanently insane, and the other seriously mentally and spiritual damaged.

Kumori doesn't have law breaker. She does have Kemmlerian Necromancy. Now is there a difference between wanting to Kill Death and save lives? That's a moralistic discussion, and there are pros and cons on that but it is beyond the scope of my argument. 

In the end it comes down to this. MORTALS have CHOICE. If you take that choice away from them with magic you will suffer lawbreaker.

[Belial666]

Because it does not follow that will and choice have to do with Lawbreaker. Bear with me;

Fact: Magic is based on belief. To use it, you must believe in what you are doing.
Fact: Using magic in a certain way changes you because you believe in that way.
Fact: Motive is meaningless in Lawbreaker, it's deciding to do it that matters.
Fact: What someone believes in may not be the truth, or even close to reality.


So, I am a wizard. I see a building full of monsters. I believe, absolutely, that they must be destroyed. I destroy them. Without my knowledge, innocent people were in that building. I never chose to destroy them but I did. Lawbreaker or no Lawbreaker?

I am a wizard. In a fight for my life between my team and some enemies I blast an enemy... and miss. The blast accidentally kills one of my human teammates instead. I never chose to kill them but I did. Lawbreaker or no Lawbreaker?

I am a rising talent in mental manipulation. I do not know that this can destroy a mind and I try to help my friends. I destroy their minds instead. I never believed in destroying my friends. How could I? I didn't even know the magic could do it. Lawbreaker or no Lawbreaker?

I am a rising talent and my mentor is teaching me to contact Outsiders, telling me they are benevolent spirits that can help us gain power to cure the sick, heal the wounded if only we choose to ask for their help and call them. I believe in helping others absolutely so I call outsiders. I definitely did not know about or believe in violating the borders of the Universe but I do it anyway. Lawbreaker or no Lawbreaker?

I have a talent in chronomancy. I have no knowledge of chronomancy being bad-nobody there to teach me-so there is no reason for me to believe it bad or wrong. In fact, I believe that glimpsing the future and averting disasters thus saving innocent lives is a good thing and it is my duty to do it, my responsibility to the power I was given. Why would I become more monstrous from my belief in saving lives?



If, in the above situations, it is my belief in magic and my own will that change me into a monster, how could I cast these spells to do things I did not believe in? If my belief and will do not matter, how can Lawbreaker be linked to them?
(in short, applying Lawbreaker through belief and choice simply does not work because belief and choice are based on knowledge. Wrong knowledge can and does shape our choices and beliefs or even cause results we would not believe in.)

[Deadmanwalking]

Because it does not follow that will and choice have to do with Lawbreaker. Bear with me;

Fact: Magic is based on belief. To use it, you must believe in what you are doing.
Fact: Using magic in a certain way changes you because you believe in that way.
Fact: Motive is meaningless in Lawbreaker, it's deciding to do it that matters.
Fact: What someone believes in may not be the truth, or even close to reality.

Nice summary. Yeah, that's most of it. Check out the entirety f harry's discussion on the Laws during Proven Guilty for a whole lot of evidence supporting my point.

So, I am a wizard. I see a building full of monsters. I believe, absolutely, that they must be destroyed. I destroy them. Without my knowledge, innocent people were in that building. I never chose to destroy them but I did. Lawbreaker or no Lawbreaker?

No Lawbreaker. Harry didn't get it for exactly this reason during Grave Peril.

I am a wizard. In a fight for my life between my team and some enemies I blast an enemy... and miss. The blast accidentally kills one of my human teammates instead. I never chose to kill them but I did. Lawbreaker or no Lawbreaker?

No Lawbreaker, though the Wardens might be problematic. You can't get Lawbreaker by way of accident.

I am a rising talent in mental manipulation. I do not know that this can destroy a mind and I try to help my friends. I destroy their minds instead. I never believed in destroying my friends. How could I? I didn't even know the magic could do it. Lawbreaker or no Lawbreaker?

Lawbreaker. The Fourth Law isn't about destroying someone's mind (though it does) it's about believing you have the right to re-order someone's mind in accordance with your own will.

I am a rising talent and my mentor is teaching me to contact Outsiders, telling me they are benevolent spirits that can help us gain power to cure the sick, heal the wounded if only we choose to ask for their help and call them. I believe in helping others absolutely so I call outsiders. I definitely did not know about or believe in violating the borders of the Universe but I do it anyway. Lawbreaker or no Lawbreaker?

I'm leaving aside the unlikelihood of this (Outsiders are really blatantly bad), but it's worth noting anyhow.

Lawbreaker. The Outsiders are Call of Cthulhu style reality-bending horrors, the act of touching them with your Will and bringing them through is not good or safe for you and who you currently are. It is very likely indeed to change you.

I have a talent in chronomancy. I have no knowledge of chronomancy being bad-nobody there to teach me-so there is no reason for me to believe it bad or wrong. In fact, I believe that glimpsing the future and averting disasters thus saving innocent lives is a good thing and it is my duty to do it, my responsibility to the power I was given. Why would I become more monstrous from my belief in saving lives?

More monstrous? Maybe not, but not everything that reduces Refresh is monstrous. Is the Doctor Stunt? I think not. By manipulating time, you are (not unlike the Kumori example) demonstrating hubris on an epic scale, and it's an act that will change you, inherently and greatly.

If, in the above situations, it is my belief in magic and my own will that change me into a monster, how could I cast these spells to do things I did not believe in? If my belief and will do not matter, how can Lawbreaker be linked to them?
(in short, applying Lawbreaker through belief and choice simply does not work because belief and choice are based on knowledge. Wrong knowledge can and does shape our choices and beliefs or even cause results we would not believe in.)

Okay, to make this clear, the way this works is really simple: The Laws are laws of reality...sorta. The Laws were made because believing in and focusing on those things to the extent required to cast a spell is such an extreme act that it twists the mind. That's why they're Laws.

[ahunting]

Fact: Magic is based on belief. To use it, you must believe in what you are doing.
Agreed
Fact: Using magic in a certain way changes you because you believe in that way.
Agreed
Fact: Motive is meaningless in Lawbreaker, it's deciding to do it that matters.
Yes and No, deciding is irrelevant, action is really all that matter.
Fact: What someone believes in may not be the truth, or even close to reality.
Agreed

So, I am a wizard. I see a building full of monsters. I believe, absolutely, that they must be destroyed. I destroy them. Without my knowledge, innocent people were in that building. I never chose to destroy them but I did. Lawbreaker or no Lawbreaker?
Lawbreaker killed humans. Harry Already broke that law.

I am a wizard. In a fight for my life between my team and some enemies I blast an enemy... and miss. The blast accidentally kills one of my human teammates instead. I never chose to kill them but I did. Lawbreaker or no Lawbreaker?
Lawbreaker.

I am a rising talent in mental manipulation. I do not know that this can destroy a mind and I try to help my friends. I destroy their minds instead. I never believed in destroying my friends. How could I? I didn't even know the magic could do it. Lawbreaker or no Lawbreaker?
Lawbreaker, See Molly.

I am a rising talent and my mentor is teaching me to contact Outsiders, telling me they are benevolent spirits that can help us gain power to cure the sick, heal the wounded if only we choose to ask for their help and call them. I believe in helping others absolutely so I call outsiders. I definitely did not know about or believe in violating the borders of the Universe but I do it anyway. Lawbreaker or no Lawbreaker?
Lawbreaker, having a SOB mentor sucks, doesn't change the fact reality hates you for talking with Horrors from beyond the gates.

I have a talent in chronomancy. I have no knowledge of chronomancy being bad-nobody there to teach me-so there is no reason for me to believe it bad or wrong. In fact, I believe that glimpsing the future and averting disasters thus saving innocent lives is a good thing and it is my duty to do it, my responsibility to the power I was given. Why would I become more monstrous from my belief in saving lives?

Chronomancy is kind of the interesting one. As far as I can tell you only get in trouble here if you go back. Going forward doesn't really change anything. But for the sake of your argument you jump back in time to the hindenburge and you get everyone off before it goes BOOM. Well now you have cause untold amounts of changes to the time stream, with a good possibility of causing a paradox. In that case Lawbreaker. Don't go against the currents of time, see FATE.

If, in the above situations, it is my belief in magic and my own will that change me into a monster, how could I cast these spells to do things I did not believe in? If my belief and will do not matter, how can Lawbreaker be linked to them?
(in short, applying Lawbreaker through belief and choice simply does not work because belief and choice are based on knowledge. Wrong knowledge can and does shape our choices and beliefs or even cause results we would not believe in.)

Its not about believing what you did was right or wrong. Its about whether in gaming it IS right or wrong. In the end your GM will always be arbiter of "reality" the laws don't care if you think its just or injust it cares if you did it with magic or not.

If you do any of those things with technology or mundane skill there would be no question of law breaker. It may still be "wrong" but it won't cost your character refresh.

[Slife]

Thomas hasn't broken any magic laws though.

He's killed people using magical abilities.

[luminos]

You'll have to show me where that happened.  Unless you refer to his feeding on people through his demon.  Because that isn't magic.

[Deadmanwalking]

He's killed people using magical abilities.

Indeed. I assume you mean with Emotional Vampire?

From YS p. 241 under "Non-Spellcasting Enthrallment" but equally applicable to killing things:

"For the purposes of game rules, such powers are already assumed to have assessed the costs for holding such sway over another’s mind. No Red Court vampire is going to get slapped with a Lawbreaker stunt for addicting someone to his narcotic saliva. To be frank, with all the other abilities that come along for the ride, he’s already made himself inhuman enough."


And from a logic perspective, Thomas doesn't need to will or believe for his demon to eat someone, quite the reverse in many cases.

[Slife]

And you don't neccessarily need to will or believe for your fey court stuff or mordite-fueled necromantic energy to kill people either.

[Deadmanwalking]

And you don't neccessarily need to will or believe for your fey court stuff or mordite-fueled necromantic energy to kill people either.

Um, as Harry clearly demonstrates with Hellfire (in White  Night if I recall) yes you do.

[ahunting]

Let me Illustrate this with a little story i like to call best of Intentions.

So one day your L33t self wakes up and is like, Man I'm gonna do something Awesome today.
Gonna Save a Bunch of lives and be really cool about it. So you think about the awesomest thing you can do and deiced that your gonna kill Hitler with your l33t magical hadouken. 

(This decision is not a breach the laws of magic, you have decided your gonna kill someone, and you believe you can do it, but until you actually do it your not guilty.)

So your like now how am i gonna kill Hitler? Dude lived back in time and junk, thats tough to get around, there are like Currents and junk. But it cool because Mom told me as long as what your doing is right there now way anything you do to get there is wrong.

But your not sure how yet, so whip out your Banana phone and your call your best bro. It rings and eventually it picks up. Your Like What up my Elder god brother of another mother 'Thulu?! And Thulu's like nutz, bro I haven't heard from you in Eons and junk. And your like yeah my B dude. But I needz a favor, you see there's this punk Hitler i gotta clip, cause he's like Evil and junk, THulu's like yeah i heard he's pretty bad, but didn't he like live a whole time ago and junk? But your like yeah so needz to go back in time. THulu's like no problem B. I got just the ritual. But your gonna needz some help and junk. So you chat with Thulu and get it all worked out.

(Ok at this point  by my definition you have broken the law. You called up an horror from beyond the gate on your Banana phone and gotten some knowledge aka power from your Elder god brother of another mother. But you had the best of intentions and your mom told you Cuthulu was a cool guy, so by the previous logic your still good to go!)

Ok so the ritual is complex and junk. You need like a talking dog, and a sweet princess pony with sparkly eyes, and there's a bunch of chanting involved, and there is a couple places that require you to have some help. So you call up your Possy and tell'em to come over cause you got a plan that you need their help with.

They get over and you have some anti-pasta and junk. Your tell'em your plan and all them think this is a great idea. But two of them kinda get weird one ya. But you need those two's help so you just slap a little compulsion on them to help their brother out with a little brillant piece of awesome. You don't go all renfield on'em. Just make it so they just wanna help a brotha out, ya know?

(Ok so here we have another law broke, you with the best of intention and no knowledge this could be bad have made it so your friends wanna help you out! How could that be wrong? Right?)

Ok so now you need to find a talking dog and princess poney with sparkling eyes. Well you know this crazy murderer dude who lives next door. He's a hitter for the local gang pure mortal but one bad dude. So your like man it would be way better if that dude was a talking pomeranian. Then he could help you out and junk, and wouldn't shoot people anymore. So you go next do and you put the old Biomancy whammy on him, and turn him into a lovely Pomeranian-Cho Mix and as a bonus he can talk! Sweet work Bro!

That only leaves you with a sparkling princess poney with sparkling eyes. As it happens your walking down the street and you see that chick from the princess diaries (it happens to be your girl friend favorite movie so you have seen it like 100 times) So your like Hey Princess, can i get your help for a sec? So you get her back to your places and you do some better living thru biomancy on her, and she is now a princess pony with sparkling eyes. BingoDesu!

(so now you have broken another laws, by my logic, having changed people into animals, but you did it for good reasons and you can always turn the princess back later right?)

So you get your Ritual on like ya do, and with your friends and some sacrifices and your talking dog and the princess poney with sparkling eyes; You Sling your a$$ back in time to the 1930!!! Sweet dude! Your going back in time to save a like a Billions lives and junk.

(yeah broke another law, again you had no idea this was anything but saving millions of innocent people.No way that could be wrong!)

Ok so your back in 1930s and junk, and cause thulu told you how to do this you got vaxinated and stuff, and have some antique bills from your dads coin collection, so you buy a plan ticket to Germany Righteous! So off you go to german where you know he's gonna be at this court house or some junk. So you show up and their he is! That SoB! walking out like he owns the place. So your Like HAADDDOOOOKEEENNNN!!!! Throwing a super fierce fireball at him. (You believe you can kill him, you have decided to kill him, and now your trying to kill him) But little did you know that Hitler was the one who taught M-Bison his l33t skillz and so Hitler does a  little head stomp dodge followed up with some Pyscho crusher junk. And your coughing up blood as the court house full of people your hadoken set on fire burns to ashes with everyone in it.

(So now under my logic you have broken the first law. No because you tried to kill Hitler, but because you just killed a whole lot people by accident. But under your logic their no way that could be wrong cause you didn't mean to hadoken that building just that SoB hitler. )

But your not phase Hitler escapes with a little rough jumping and some psycho flying. So your like Man! I never knew Hitler was such an evil BA. So you know your gonna need some help. So you run into the burned out shell of a court house and find a bunch of bodies, and you think back to what Mama told you. "Its never wrong to raise Zombies to help kill hitler Son" you can just picture her saying that while she was hold yagosathotbh's tentacle at dinner. 
(yeah another law down!!! Woot!! Or not? How could your mom teach your wrong?!)

So you raise those people up to help you out, and you chase after hitler zombies in tow.

So you catch up with hitler just in time to see him duck into his panic vault. Yelling at Gerbals to tell you nothing.  So you beat on the door and release its made of Unobtanium, NUTZ! Can't get in and Junk, so you look at Gerbals and are like tell me now how to get in!!! But Gerbals just cuts out his tongue and spits blood on you.  So your jump in his head and see that the Combination is, 1 2 3, and your like Junk!! I never would have thought of that.

So you open the door and shoot hitler in the mouth with a nice Hadoken YAY! Mission accomplished Awesome.

(So in this part you have broken 1 more law, you invaded Gerbals Mind, and took info, You don't get credit again for killing hitler ether b/c Hitler is a monster, or more likely B you had already broken the law when you destroyed the court house. I wonder which??)

Intention has nothing to do with, Decision also aren't the "deciding" factor, what you do and what happens as a result are all that count. Any Questions?

[luminos]

could you please retype that post in English, so that I might have a chance to read it?

[wyvern]

Are you really saying that if Harry killed a guy with pure Soulfire or Hellfire he'd not get Lawbreaker?

Yes, actually, I would.  The catch there is that I don't think you can actually use "pure" hellfire or soulfire.  Yes, I know the book lists them as full sponsored magics that can be taken separately (unlike, e.g. kemmlerian necromancy) - but from their use in the novels, I don't see that happening.  We never see hellfire used as anything other than extra oomph behind normal fire evocation, and even soulfire is described as adding to an existing magic rather than being used on its own.  Both of these are set up as additional power sources that get tacked on to existing mortal magic; there's no evidence that either of them can be used in a "pure" state in the first place.

But if you could?  No, I wouldn't apply lawbreaker stunts to that.  If you've got a holy man who uses pure soulfire and smites a foe with it, he's not going to be dealing with lawbreaker stunts - though he may be dealing with a rather annoyed divine sponsor, not to mention all the purely mundane repercussions of murder.  Likewise, if someone's got a pact with a demon for power and somehow has "pure" hellfire - he won't have to worry about lawbreaker stunts, but, well, he's got rather bigger problems anyway.