easiest way to save a black court vampire and return them to a human

[BumblingBear]

Couldn't you roll Discipline to go to Imagination Land and ask the friendly neighbor for a magic potion?

[devonapple]

Couldn't you roll Discipline to go to Imagination Land and ask the friendly neighbor for a magic potion?

Or Athletics, to do the magical Imagination Land Dance.

Back to the discussion:

"Your table, your rules" is all well and good, and while it is good to get some peer review from time to time for one's ideas, one will always have to reconcile feedback from people who are advising in line with the canon of the game because *that* is what *we* all think we are playing in common.

That said, prefacing a question with a "I know it's not canon, but how would you [insert question]" goes a long way towards streamlining feedback. For awhile, any magical discussion eventually degenerated into a discussion about the Laws of Magic, so folks who want to prevent that started including in the question "this is not a thread about the Laws of Magic" when they wanted to discuss their Outsider magics and such. And I think it worked.

So, back to the original question:

Lets rephrase it as "easiest way to save a black court vampire and return them to a human (barring canonical issues)" and say that a ritual with enough shifts to kill the BCV should be enough to return it to a human, and probably make it the entirety of a scenario to do it. With allies and enemies of the BCV sniffing around town, looking around for their missing ally/enemy, finally breaking in during the final phase of the ritual, with the other players holding them off while the spellcaster works the ritual.

[BumblingBear]

So, back to the original question:

Lets rephrase it as "easiest way to save a black court vampire and return them to a human (barring canonical issues)" and say that a ritual with enough shifts to kill the BCV should be enough to return it to a human, and probably make it the entirety of a scenario to do it. With allies and enemies of the BCV sniffing around town, looking around for their missing ally/enemy, finally breaking in during the final phase of the ritual, with the other players holding them off while the spellcaster works the ritual.

I like this, and I think it would also be appropriate for the ritual to include the death of an animal or something to symbolize the transfer of life.

[devonapple]

I like this, and I think it would also be appropriate for the ritual to include the death of an animal or something to symbolize the transfer of life.

And perhaps one of the challenges can be a "spirit quest" to find a spirit willing to "sponsor" this redemption through the sacrifice of one of its animal kind.

[evileeyore]

So your real question is "how would you do something that's against canon?"

Not at all.  Nowhere in canon or WoJ does it say Black Court Vampires are unable to be changed back.


Nowhere does it say how they are created for that matter, but we can surmise it's either via "Being Drained of Life By a BCV" or "Being Drained of Life by a BCV and Then Brought Back Using BCV Blood or Other Very Fast Methods" since Drulinda did it in under a few minutes (don't quote my time estimate).

We know how to kill them, what weaknesses they have, and generally what strengths they have.

We do not know if what is animating them is alien, if it simply mimicing the memories, or if it is the original person (sans soul?) returned to unlife.  Heck.. they might still have the original soul in there.



So saying "But WoJ" or "BY CANON!" without those backing you up is, as I was trying to point out, pointless.   

[Richard_Chilton]

I know.  Don't care.  Thanks for the link though, I've read it before but didn't save it.

Were Mr. Butcher to sit at my table he'd have to deal with how my table runs things, our consensus and my take on how things work.  His "authorship" would have little bearing. 

Sorry - most of my responses have been that this isn't canonical.  Now that I know we're using the rules in a non-DV world...

Simple transformation.  Change his body from a vampire's body to a human one.  That's a total takeout (averages about 23 shifts - might be more to handle thresholds and other problems).  Far fewer successes needed than most of the solutions mentioned.

It's allowed by the rules, not allowed by canon.  It would have worked with Susan too - transforming her just enough to pure the infection.

Richard

[tymire]

Bah it shouldn't be a ritual death, it should be a ritual life as the goal is to bring the dead back to life....  Woot for nookie  

This is another thing that varies widely according to taste. I personally don't believe in ever letting NPCs outshine PCs at something the PC wants to do. I am fine ruling that the thousands of years of wizards before the current party just weren't HARDCORE enough to get the job done. PCs are different, destined, special, they have "it", they have spirit or strength of will or some indefinable trait that allows them to succeed where everyone else failed. Because they're PCs.

Partly agree here, however imo you also have to follow the rule of "If you can do it I can do it also." or the setting isn't continuous.  Also depending on the game this may or maynot apply.

Folks should also remember ghosts themselves are just echos and THEY don't get brought back.  Wouldn't be surprised at all if Harry doesn't remember anything that happend during the ghost time unless he eats himself (as what happened with nightmare) when he gets raised....  Actually have to ask what happens to a ghost when someone is raised from the dead or was only dead a short time period, it should still be around.  Hehe bet ya that Harry was only dead for a couple mins before TWQ or one of her subjects went to go save him since after working that hard would be pissed if he slipped through her fingers.  At the end of the book his ghost probably meets him somewhere.

Also per the white court, black vamps are probably created the dracula way as everyone knows.  Unless it would hurt them more why would they lie about it?

[Richard_Chilton]

Not at all.  Nowhere in canon or WoJ does it say Black Court Vampires are unable to be changed back.

....

So saying "But WoJ" or "BY CANON!" without those backing you up is, as I was trying to point out, pointless.   

So Jim Butcher sitting down at your table and saying "It won't work" isn't something you would accept BUT if we quote a WoJ or part of a book that's canon enough?

Sorry, I meant "quote part of a book that you won't say 'Well, Harry was probably wrong there' and accept as canon" - that would trump Jim saying "Dude, it's this way."?

I can't determine what you would accept as valid argument, so I'll shut up now.  At least on this thread.

Richard

[evileeyore]

So Jim Butcher sitting down at your table and saying "It won't work" isn't something you would accept BUT if we quote a WoJ or part of a book that's canon enough?

If you're in a debate and make an Appeal To Authority* then you should have the authority actually back you up.


And if JB sat at my table his voice would have as much weight as everyone elses.  Honestly probably more, most of group were unabashed squealing fans and would immediately side with him.  



 

Sorry, I meant "quote part of a book that you won't say 'Well, Harry was probably wrong there' and accept as canon" - that would trump Jim saying "Dude, it's this way."?

No, no, no... I don't personally accept Harry as a Reliable Narrator because half the time he doesn't even know what he's doing (and Mr. Butcher butchered Hobs - but that's my opinion   ). I'll accept canon and WOJ as being those things though.  They have weight and measure.  I often wish things were more spelled out, but hey, we got what we got.

I can't determine what you would accept as valid argument, so I'll shut up now.  At least on this thread.

Anything other than "This is How it is and no you Can't do that".

Which is very pointless in a discussion dealing with "How do we do that?"

[evileeyore]

Bah it shouldn't be a ritual death, it should be a ritual life as the goal is to bring the dead back to life....  Woot for nookie

Hmmm.  Something powerful enough to overcome even Death, itself?  Sure, I can see something like Woodstock being tapped for that...

Folks should also remember ghosts themselves are just echos and THEY don't get brought back.  Wouldn't be surprised at all if Harry doesn't remember anything that happend during the ghost time unless he eats himself (as what happened with nightmare) when he gets raised....

Pure speculation here:  I don't think Harry will end up as an actual Ghost type ghost.  I'm betting he's something more.  Or that we find out that What We Know About Ghosts is Wrong.


Can't.  Wait.  For.  June!  

[ryanshowseason2]

I know.  Don't care.  Thanks for the link though, I've read it before but didn't save it.

Were Mr. Butcher to sit at my table he'd have to deal with how my table runs things, our consensus and my take on how things work.  His "authorship" would have little bearing.  

Then you're running in evileyoreverse. I assume since the original question was asked on the dresdenverse forum that I can assume that most if not all of the rules of it apply. Theres also a difference between improbable and unheard of.  Sure

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genociding an entire race of supernaturals is improbable as in RCV

so if someone wanted to perform a spell that say crashed all windows pcs on the planet...ok maybe but it will take a while... but! doing something like dropping a template from a character is unheard of. It just hasn't happened. Hence....

Some of us are just saying, "Hey this doesn't make sense within this verse" , and for good reason. Has there ever been a character in it that has turned their entire being on a dime? Well actually yes there has and they can, Renfields, RC infected, WCVirgin and changelings can and it is part of their process. However! This has always seemed followed a few rules: (Please correct me if I'm wrong and tell me the example )

1. Mortals are flimsy and can be changed by more powerful creatures, adding to their template.
2. Supernatural templates are changed by their own will alone. And may have the chance to remove their own template, No outside influence can force them to drop a template.
3. Severely overwhelming force MAY be able to force a supernatural template to add to its own existing template, and not drop the old in the process.

(click to show/hide)

Denarian coin on the library as an example

If my players asked for this I'd respond by asking them "Well whats stopping me from Unwizarding you?" or un(template)ing you? I cast lvl 100 plot magic unstunt/detemplate.

.... Actually it wouldn't be a bad tradeoff to force a player to give up their own powers in order to turn back an npc.... seems an appropriate sacrifice....

[Richard_Chilton]

No, no, no... I don't personally accept Harry as a Reliable Narrator because half the time he doesn't even know what he's doing (and Mr. Butcher butchered Hobs - but that's my opinion   ). I'll accept canon and WOJ as being those things though.  They have weight and measure.  I often wish things were more spelled out, but he, we got what we got.

The bulk of the canon from the books is from unreliable Harry.  Murphy does one, Marcone does one, and Thomas does one - but virtually all we know of the DV is what Harry reports.  If him and Bob talking something out isn't enough then it isn't enough.

No, they didn't say that BCVs were unsavable, but when talking about Renfields, Bob said:
"The original Merlin couldn't undo it, and neither could any of the saints on record who have tried. A thrall can be freed, or recover over time. Renfields can't. From the moment their minds break they've got an expiration date."
- it's odd that he didn't add "Which is strange, because it's so easy to turn a Black Court Vampire back to a human" - unless that's impossible as well.

As for suggestions on how to do it - look up on the thread.  If it's not impossible because of canon it's a simple shape change.  As easy as turning turning someone to stone and back again.

Richard

[Lash Dresden]

I think we can always trust that Bob is right with his in-universe explanations, simply because Jim created Bob for the sole purpose of explaining to the reader how things work in-universe. 

[evileeyore]

Then you're running in evileyoreverse.

Yes, I am.  Not germaine to the conversation though.

So what do you think would be required if it were possible?

Theres also a difference between improbable and unheard of.  Sure

(click to show/hide)

genociding an entire race of supernaturals is improbable as in RCV

Your "improbable" spoiler was "unheard of" till it happened as well.

So what do you think would be required if it were possible?

Some of us are just saying, "Hey this doesn't make sense within this verse"

Which is isn't a helpful answer.  Okay, it is, once.  Then you either leave the discussion or start helping.

So what do you think would be required if it were possible?

Has there ever been a character in it that has turned their entire being on a dime? Well actually yes there has and they can, Renfields, RC infected, WCVirgin and changelings can and it is part of their process.

Good.

So if it is possible (as part of a process) to change another's Template (Renfield, RCI, and BCV are all acted upon by outside forces), then it stands to reason others can have Templates added or removed as part of process.

Now we just need to figured out the process.

1. Mortals are flimsy and can be changed by more powerful creatures, adding to their template.

This can happen to non-Mortals as well, presumeably.

I don't think Changeling are immune to BCVing or RCVInfecting, for instance.

2. Supernatural templates are changed by their own will alone. And may have the chance to remove their own template, No outside influence can force them to drop a template.

This is unproven and possibly false.  I know there was talk of being able to uninfect an RCVI but that cost was too high?

Also taking away a Hexenwolf's hexitem will strip them of the Template.

3. Severely overwhelming force MAY be able to force a supernatural template to add to its own existing template, and not drop the old in the process.

(click to show/hide)

Denarian coin on the library as an example

So your saying a Changeling couldn't be Hexenwolfed or RCVIed?

The Alphas couldn't be Hexenwolfed or RCVIed?

If my players asked for this I'd respond by asking them "Well whats stopping me from Unwizarding you?" or un(template)ing you? I cast lvl 100 plot magic unstunt/detemplate.

Presumably your desire to keep them at the table.  Also the rule of consensus.

.... Actually it wouldn't be a bad tradeoff to force a player to give up their own powers in order to turn back an npc.... seems an appropriate sacrifice....

Finally!


Was that so hard?

The bulk of the canon from the books is from unreliable Harry.

Sigh.  Yes.  I know.

Look, leave the Unreliable Narrator aside... we have "Canon", "Not Canon", and "Possibly Canon".  I'm willing to accept what Harry observes as "Canon", what Bob or higher authority Wizard says as "Canon", anything Harry (or anyone) is shown as doing as "Canon", and finally anything Harry says without any back up as "Possibly Canon".  Hell, for sake of most discussions on this board I'm willing to accept Hary's words as Canon.  What is or isn't Canon has no bearing on any conversation once you;ve decided to continue past the point of "This can't work in Canon".

But let's move away from Canon.  Too many canons, not enough powder...

No, they didn't say that BCVs were unsavable, but when talking about Renfields, Bob said:
"The original Merlin couldn't undo it, and neither could any of the saints on record who have tried. A thrall can be freed, or recover over time. Renfields can't. From the moment their minds break they've got an expiration date."

Ahah! I'll take this as Fact for now, but what book was that in?


So what do you think would be required to unRenfeild a Renfeild if it were possible?

My take is breaking the "Renfield Enchantment" maybe prolonged seclusion for the Master.

Which leaves with a broken minded mortal who is probably a vegetable.


I can easily understand the Merlin declaring them unsalvageable.  I would.

If it's not impossible because of canon it's a simple shape change.  As easy as turning turning someone to stone and back again.

Richard

That's extraordinarily unhelpful.

I understand you don't like the idea for some reason, but this isn't the "Slap down all ideas and anyone questioning the WoJ!" forum.

[BumblingBear]

Which is isn't a helpful answer.  Okay, it is, once.  Then you either leave the discussion or start helping.

You came looking for input.  You are getting input.  If people believe it's not possible, they are going to weigh in that it's not possible.

You didn't come into the thread asking us how we would model it in a non-canon game.  

Then when the majority felt it would not be possible or a bad idea, you've started getting all butt-hurt about it.

Presumably your desire to keep them at the table.  Also the rule of consensus.

Any player who would seriously leave the table over something like this is a b1tch and I would be happy to see them go.  It's not that hard to get new players usually. I found two in a week.

I understand you don't like the idea for some reason, but this isn't the "Slap down all ideas and anyone questioning the WoJ!" forum.

This also isn't the, "Try to act as petulant as possible and pull the victim card because other posters are discussing canon in a game with its own mythos".

The fact that you're being this defensive and passive aggressive about it now is not exactly ingratiating yourself with me.  For the most part, this is usually a very friendly forum but threads like this make marks on that overall "feel" for the boards.

My suggestion is to just let this thread die, and make a new thread rewording the OP to reflect that you're not interested in canon or WOJ.

Cheers