What's the difference between discussion and debate?

[iago]

Spawning off from http://www.jim-butcher.com/bb/index.php/topic,1825.30.html ...

However, I'm not looking to debate. I just want discussion.  I want to talk about what's possible rather than argue about why who has to be wrong and what theory isn't possible.  I came here to talk about the dresdenverse and interesting topics along the lines introduced by the books. I don't want to drive each subject into the ground.  That tends to make people go away.

So, I like this idea of providing a means for segregating "casual discussion" from "focused debate"... but in order to do that, I need to establish a policy.  In particular, that policy needs to clearly and unambiguously delineate what constitutes "focused debate" vs. what constitutes "casual discussion".  And I need to do it in such a way that it doesn't require doubling the number of boards -- so mainly I'm thinking this would, at most, establish one new board per category.

So I put the question to y'all.  How do we distinguish the two, and how do we implement something like this in a way least destructive to the existing board dynamic?

[Ghsdkgb]

In a discussion, you use the other person's ideas to augment your own.

In a debate, you try to prove the other person wrong.

[DragonFire]

Honestly, I'm not sure you can. To me, at least, discussion and debate are the same thing.
I"ve encountered this a lot on here. My style may be overly confrontational, I don't know. I certainly don't try to be, but one of the criticism I find when I disagree with people is they say 'it's all speculation, it might be true, your stifling speculation'.
It seems to me that the demarkation from discussion to debate seems to be when someone disagree's.
How would we enforce that?
I was thinking maybe we should change it from discussion to speculation?
If you are speculating, people don't disagree so much as refine your idea, and when you are debating, someone takes up a contrary position and uses book quotes.
I hope this helps.

[Amber]

I don't know... the way people seem to treat the two, discussion is when you agree with me, but debate is when you disagree.  I'm not sure that there's much difference.  And I don't think that there's an intended difference when the poster starts the thread.  I understand the intent of creating another board, but I'm not sure it would help, because threads start one way and move into "debate" as posts pile up.

Guess that isn't much help.  Sorry, Iago.

[ashton]

Here's how I view it:

In a discussion, the intent isn't to persuade: it's to collaboratively build. The basic assumption is that everyone's viewpoint is basically valid and interesting and deserves expansion.

In a debate, the intent is to persuade the audience, through rhetoric, argumentation, or what-have-you, to a specific point of view. Usually, multiple points of view are presented by different authors, all of whom are trying either to prove their own point, disprove the other points, or both.

Maybe examples are better.

Discussion:

bobtheskull: I think X.
lightsabre: I think Y.
bobtheskull: That's interesting: that completely changes the nature of Q, though!
lightsabre: Hnh, you're right. But if Q is that way, then that means that X and Y are both really close together.
someone else: I have this theory about N: how does that fit into X, Y and Q?
bobtheskull: Weeeeeell, Y supports it, but not X, unless you also take Q into account.
lightsabre: Hold on, X also supports it even without Q, because check out this neat thing!
bobtheskull: Holy cow, I never even saw that. Did you know about R?
someone else: Wait, Q and R have to do with X? HOLY CRAP, JIM'S A GENIUS.
bobtheskull: Amen.
lightsabre: Amen.
everyone else: Amen. Hummus?
bobtheskull: Dude, awesome hummus.
lightsabre: TOTALLY awesome hummus.
someone else: Wow, what's hummus?
bobtheskull: Chickpeas.
lightsabre: Chickpeas AND olive oil.
someone else: Chickpeas, olive oil, and Angelina Jolie.
everyone else: *drool*

Debate:

bobtheskull: I think X.
lightsabre: I think Y.
bobtheskull: X is clearly right, because of A, B, C and N.
lightsabre: Y is clearly right, because of Q, R, S and T. Besides which, X is invalid on its face: C isn't canon!
bobtheskull: Anyone who's read the books knows that C is canon. X is totally valid, because of A, B and N in addition to C. Furthermore, Y is wrong because of...
someone else: I totally disagree with both of you. P is the only right answer: X is invalid because of C, Y is invalid because of S, and P incorporates the best parts of A, B, N, Q, R /and/ T!
bobtheskull: Okay, point, but, dude, B.
lightsabre: Forget B, check out Q! I still believe fervently that Y is the way to go.
bobtheskull: I disagree, but I see your point.
someone else: I disagree with bobtheskull, and kind of agree with lightsabre, but I still think my P is the best idea.
someone else: Heh, P. Geddit? Pee? HAHA. Er. Anyway, she has a point. All in favor of P?
someone else: I like P, too. I can't believe I wrote that.
someone else: No way, bob's totally sold me on X.
someone else: Eenh, I'm with lightsabre on Y.
someone else: Man, I'm hungry. I could totally go for some hummus.
bobtheskull: I'm in favor of hummus. Well argued, lightsabre.
lightsabre: I third hummus. Back at you, bob.
someone else: Awesome, hummus! Come on, GROUP HUG!
everyone else: *hug* *hummus*

Just Plain Dumb:

bobtheskull: I think X.
lightsabre: I think Y.
bobtheskull: You're an idiot.
lightsabre: Am not. YOU'RE an idiot.
bobtheskull: You're /always/ an idiot! Look at (unrelated thread)! You always do X!
lightsabre: I am not. I NEVER do X! Except that one time, but that was because YOU did X, I was just defending myself!
bobtheskull:OH YEAH, WELL I CAN TALK LOUDER.
lightsabre: YEAH, WELL, I CAN BE MORE VICTIMIZED.
someone else: You know, maybe this argument isn't a good idea.
bobtheskull: SHUT UP I'M REAMING THE IDIOT.
lightsabre: YEAH WELL I'M REAMING UR MOM.
someone else: JESUS, SHUT UP.
bobtheskull: NO, YOU SHUT UP.
lightsabre: NO, YOU.
everyone else: (stabbing selves in eye with fork)
iago, mickeyfinn, ashton: *BANHAMMER*

[Paige]

By definition a debate is a discussion between people with apposing points of view.

A discussion is “Consideration of a subject by a group; an earnest conversation,” where the topic and/or premise is generally agreed.

You cannot have a discussion between people with apposing points of view.

Problem: with so many people coming at a topic with varying amounts of information, egos, and beliefs a “discussion” will more often turn to debate.

The only way to avoid (or at least lessen it) would be to make a section strictly for “discussion” wherein the topic and the opening post are accepted and agreed upon by all following posters and a question is posed for discussion based on that topic and opening post. (If you don’t agree with the premise you don’t post.)

It’ll probably still degenerate into name calling and flaming but...what’ya gonna do?
 

[Priscellie]

I tip my hat to you, Ashton!  And now I'm really craving hummus...

[iago]

It sounds to me like discussion takes an idea and elaborates on it, essentially as a collaborative exercise. 

So by contrast a debate takes an idea, determines two or more opposing viewpoints, and discusses the merits of each of those viewpoints in conflict with one another.

Yes?

[Shiggy]

Yeah, most of the TV section appears to be debate, and the Timelines discussions are generally discussion.  Other than that, it's a mix of the both.

[Elanel]

In my experience from 6 loooong years of running the same web forum a debate is where an idea or two are put under the spotlight for formal analysis whereas a discussion is an exchange of ideas with no formal cessation. Good ideas survive to be adapted as you learn more about your subject matter.

So in that regard it comes down to language and conduct of individuals. How you begin a discussion will largely decide how others respond. Control of debates & discussions is essential. That's where the forum staff come in. User reputation is another problem. If a regular user starts threads with intent to moan; they fall, sometimes subconsciously onto the watchlist of other members. You think - 'Oh it's so-in-so again... What now?' On the opposite end you have the user who will often defend the virtues of the 'product', so what occurs is a battle of extreme opposites. This can in turn dictate the way in which a forum is managed. Achieving a balance is a huge endeavor and you may have to assume it cannot be achieved, though I would say in regards to this site the influx of new members having a go at the TV adaptation are the short-sharp-shock types who fizzle out as time passes. Some remain and become calmer and more constructive, fitting in with the forum ethos.

I had a bigger entry detailing how I handled it on my web forum as we had this exact same problem a while back. It resulted in a lot of changes and enforcing rules to ensure debate didn't turn into a heavyweight ego clash by page 2. Of course different people have different ways of solving problems.

[bobtheskull]

I gotta say, Ashton nails the difference between discussion and debate.

However, I don't really like how he used my nick here in the examples. I've never called anyone names here.  I called one person a hypocrite but it's hardly the same as calling someone stupid.

Ashton, did you really view my posts like that or were you simply writing an example?

[iago]

Ashton, did you really view my posts like that or were you simply writing an example?

I would consider the nicknames used in the example to be picked because they're from the thread that kicked this one off, not because they particularly adhered to any one role.  It may as well be Dick and Jane.

[CarolM]

Meanwhile back to the difference between discussion and debate. When I want to know the meaning of a word I consult the Oxford English dictionary. Of course this only gives the English English meanings not the US English ones.  (You know what I mean I'm sure).
Denate =
 

noun 1 a formal discussion in a public meeting or legislature, in which opposing arguments are presented. 2 an argument.

Discussion=     
 

• noun 1 the action or process of discussing something. 2 a conversation or debate about a topic. 3 a detailed treatment of a topic in speech or writing.

I've underlined the words I think relevant. Not a lot of difference in meaning as far as I can see. Perhaps the difference is in common usage? Possibly Debate is a more formal term?
But I'm no English major, I stopped short at A level English literature.

[DragonFire]

Everyone who's posted has seemed to say that discussion is collaborative, and debate is with opposing views.
But I see some issues trying to split these on a board.
FOr instance, if you have a 'discussion' topic, does that mean no one is allowed to disagree? Might make for a very boring thread.
What if somone starts a 'discussion' topic on, say Murphy getting the Sword, and someone else wants to point out the virtues of Thomas getting it. Is that changing it to a debate?
Or if someone wants to debate Murphy/Thomas, does this mean a new thread has to be created specifically for that purpose?
I think most threads have a mixture of discussion/debate in them, and that works.
Everyone seems to have a different definition, and I worry that if we set a 'discussion corner', people will start reporting everything that doesn't seem to agree with their theory.

Case in point, I thought bobtheskull was happy to debate the topic with me, till he suddenly said he wasn't.

[iago]

Hm.  So, if the definitions of the two terms are ambiguous (as I privately suspected they would be), what's a better way of discussing this?  Are we thinking something more like "Admiration vs. Confrontation" or the like?