Author Topic: How Many Scions Can You Make?  (Read 16291 times)

Offline Crion

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 285
  • "Don't. Mess. With. Librarians."
    • View Profile
How Many Scions Can You Make?
« on: June 03, 2010, 01:43:30 PM »
I've always had fun with playing characters that were "in between" two groups, and my old group from college has been much the same way. Now that we are all reading the Dresden RPG, the various Scion-like ideas are coming out to play. It also doesn't help that we've all played White Wolf's "Scion" and "Exalted" lines, which just adds fuel to the fire.

So my question for you: what sort of Scions have you made and used in your game?

Do you prefer to use the "traditional" kind (i.e. half mortal, half deity), or have you used a different approach (such as the Changeling idea; half human, half something else)?

What other entities have you used besides the mythological gods?

What of the descendants of an original scion (for an in-game example, think Mouse)?

What is your approach to designing/building a Scion? Have you gone low-refresh with acquiring powers as they "awaken," or did you just toss your powers together and said "Go"?


The idea of Scions also got me to thinking of the following. . .
What about the traditional Dhampir and their various retellings? Would you just modify the Red Court Infected, or would you recreate them using the Black Court?

What about using a "minor" entity as the parent? This can still include changelings and most demons, but I'm referencing things a little less common, like specific entities/beings or a specific but rare classification of an entity? (Dragons, Valkyries, Ancient/Unaligned Fae, etc)

Have you ever thought of a descendant of a non-scion hero having abilities of their ancestor? The idea of a hero that was NOT the child of a deity/entity, but his/her specific gifts have somehow passed through the bloodline tends to be an amusing plot device for me. (Examples in myth include Sigurd/Sigmund, although many other heroes can be viewed as options).


I think I'll stop the ramble there and let you all have at it!
"Smilies exist because no one has bothered to make a sarcasm font." Lost_Heretic
"I don't care about whose DNA has recombined with whose. When everything goes to hell, the people who stand by you without flinching--they are your family." Harry Dresden

Offline feliscon

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 190
    • View Profile
Re: How Many Scions Can You Make?
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2010, 02:14:08 PM »
I made a nephilim for a PbP game, but my group had some problems with him having Soulfire, and it didn't really make sense to me for him to not have it, so I'm changing character. My eventual list of powers would have been Soulfire, Supernatural Speed and Recovery (catch is Hellfire 'unholy stuff' and True Faith of people who still truly believe that Nephilim are abominations) Inhuman Strength and Wings under a Human Guise. Also would have added Holy Touch independant of Rightousness attached to the wings and human guise if the GM allowed it (when he spreads his wings his whole body shines with holy light and burns holy-vunerable creatures)

I can post him if people are interested.

Offline John Galt

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 429
    • View Profile
Re: How Many Scions Can You Make?
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2010, 02:55:06 PM »
I made a nephilim for a PbP game, but my group had some problems with him having Soulfire, and it didn't really make sense to me for him to not have it, so I'm changing character. My eventual list of powers would have been Soulfire, Supernatural Speed and Recovery (catch is Hellfire 'unholy stuff' and True Faith of people who still truly believe that Nephilim are abominations) Inhuman Strength and Wings under a Human Guise. Also would have added Holy Touch independant of Rightousness attached to the wings and human guise if the GM allowed it (when he spreads his wings his whole body shines with holy light and burns holy-vunerable creatures)

I can post him if people are interested.

One of my "evil" character concepts is a scion of a frost or fire Giant in norse mythology, maybe a son of Ymir himself.  He'd look something like this:

High Concept: Giant Bastard
Trouble: Ragnarok Starter

Powers: [-1] Elemental Fists (claws), [-4] Supernatural Strength, [-4] Supernatural Toughness, [+3] Fire or Ice

Skills:
Superb: Might, Endurance
Great: Intimidation, Fists
Good: Athletics, Presence
Fair: Alertness, Craftsmenship
Average: Discipline, Conviction

Items: Full body armor (armor 2), Brass Knuckles (Fists +1)


Stress:
Physical: 0000 (0000) (not fire/ice)
Mental: 000
Social: 0000

Armor: 0000

Offline Deadmanwalking

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3534
    • View Profile
Re: How Many Scions Can You Make?
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2010, 03:52:35 PM »
Brass Knuckles (Fists +1)

Armor: 0000

OT for this thread, but weapons never give a bonus to a skill, Brass Knuckles are just Weapon: 1 which you can use with Fists (and thus in no way stack with Claws). Also, by the official rules, armor does not and cannot stack. And the creators have strongly advised that if you do allow it to stack (as I do), you have additional armor complement the highest one, like a complementing skill, and thus only grant +1 for atotal armor of 3 on this character.

Offline John Galt

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 429
    • View Profile
Re: How Many Scions Can You Make?
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2010, 04:09:56 PM »
Well as I understood it he'd only have 2 armor against attacks of the nature of his catch, so like his physical stress, it was ok to have 4 armor when his weakness is very easily researched.

As for the brass knuckles, I guess I could make them into an item of power.  Elemental fists wasn't going to work exactly like claws, it was simply going to do weapon 1 fire or ice damage, and thus the brass knuckles would stack doing weapon 1 or 2 physical damage.  My problem was with the fact they would do more damage the harder he hit so I wasn't sure how to express that other than fists +1 (offense).  I suppose I could just make them a 0 cost item of power that was tied to an aspect that granted +2 to fists offensively and a compel of -2 defensively since they could weight him down.

Offline Deadmanwalking

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3534
    • View Profile
Re: How Many Scions Can You Make?
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2010, 04:36:30 PM »
Oh, I'm not really arguing balance on the Brass Knucles, just the way the rules work, which is pretty simple: Brass Knuckles are Weapon: 1 (which would stack with Strength bonuses, but not claws). You could make Elemental Fists +1 Stress and stackable to go with the knuckles...but that's actually demonstratably worse than just having them be Weapon: 2.

Though directly adding to skills IS legitimately something that only Items of Power and other things that cost Refresh should really be able to do. Your second idea is identical to a Stunt Fix has, and thus shouldn't be available for free, IMO.

On the armor: Reducing all Stress by 4 is really ridiculous actually. Reducing it by 3 is legitimately much more balanced.

Offline John Galt

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 429
    • View Profile
Re: How Many Scions Can You Make?
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2010, 04:51:51 PM »
Oh, I'm not really arguing balance on the Brass Knucles, just the way the rules work, which is pretty simple: Brass Knuckles are Weapon: 1 (which would stack with Strength bonuses, but not claws). You could make Elemental Fists +1 Stress and stackable to go with the knuckles...but that's actually demonstratably worse than just having them be Weapon: 2.

Though directly adding to skills IS legitimately something that only Items of Power and other things that cost Refresh should really be able to do. Your second idea is identical to a Stunt Fix has, and thus shouldn't be available for free, IMO.

On the armor: Reducing all Stress by 4 is really ridiculous actually. Reducing it by 3 is legitimately much more balanced.

Well I'll think about the brass knuckles.  This character will probably never see the light of day anyway.  He's an evil/neutral guy and he's third on my list of evil/neutral characters I want to play. 

For the armor I don't see how having four armor against anything not fire, and 2 armor against fire is anymore unbalanced than a magic user having a cloak that gives Armor 4 with 4 uses or more, which is easily doable at this giant's power level (chest deep).

Offline Deadmanwalking

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3534
    • View Profile
Re: How Many Scions Can You Make?
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2010, 04:59:00 PM »
Um, while that's doable, it's the product of an extremely focused Crafting character (his only defense, in point of fact) and only usable for free 4 times per session, after which it costs Mental Stress AND it's from an item that can be taken away and (unlike armor) not easily replaced. Always-on effects cost more for the same effect, and do so for a reason.

But all that's neither here nor there, I'm actually not primarily arguing what I think is balanced. I'm stating that by the official rules, armor doesn't stack. Period. And that the game designers have gone on record as saying that if you do allow it to, the Complementing method is the way to go.


To sum up: I'm not really arguing the character is unbalanced, just that there are some rules errors in it that should probably be cleared up at some point.

Offline Falar

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 714
  • A veritable treasure trove
    • View Profile
    • Falar + Sha
Re: How Many Scions Can You Make?
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2010, 05:12:17 PM »
I was thinking the other night about going with a Half Demon that's striving to get into the angelic hosts. He has this horrible demon side that wants to do all kinds of things and tempts him with power, but it also lets him know about the pure love, grace, and beauty that is heaven and wants it and thinks it will never deserve it.

Something like that at least. Someone who is balanced on the knife edge between serving heaven and serving hell and serving mortality and how they can't quite fit in where they are, but neither option is an easy choice that they can just do.
Lead Creator of Terror in the Twin Cities - winner of the 2010 Borden DFRPG Award for Best Location

Offline John Galt

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 429
    • View Profile
Re: How Many Scions Can You Make?
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2010, 05:19:46 PM »
ah, gotcha.  Well armor 3 against any non fire attack is still pretty stellar so I guess I wouldn't complain too much.  I'm also considering giving him only inhuman toughness and inhuman strength and then the modular power to shapeshift into a Frost Giant with superhuman strength  and hulking size.  I'm just not sure I'm confident on how modular abilities work.  As far as I can tell my powers would be:

inhuman toughness[-2]; catch[+3]
inhuman strength [-2]
Human form [+1]

Giant Form [-2]
superhuman strength[-4]
hulking size [-2]

But that would make my total refresh 8, which is kind of silly since I can get similar effects without bothering to have a giant form for less refresh.  In fact, I'm not even sure if inhuman toughness automatically carries over to my giant form or I have to count it as 2 more refresh for the modular ability, making my refresh cost 10.  Modular abilities confuse me.

Offline Deadmanwalking

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3534
    • View Profile
Re: How Many Scions Can You Make?
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2010, 05:31:31 PM »
Modular Abilities aren't needed for what you want, they're for the ability to shift into a variety of other forms with varying abilities at will (so you can have Claws and Wings OR Hulking Size OR Inhuman Speed or whatever else you want). For a single additional form, you just need the Human Form drawback.



Personally, I'd build it like this:

Claws [-1]
Inhuman Strength [-2]
Supernatural Toughness [-4]
The Catch is Fire and Heat [+3]

Human Form [+1] effecting
Hulking Size [-2]
Supernatural Strength [-2]

That's -7 Refresh and seems appropriate. Technically, you could have only Hulking Size be effected by Human Form (keeping Supernatural Strength even at human size)...but that would result in you not getting much stronger when you grew, which has a few logical issues for me personally.

Offline John Galt

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 429
    • View Profile
Re: How Many Scions Can You Make?
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2010, 05:38:35 PM »
cool.  I like that better.  Thanks for the help.

EDIT:

Do I not need a power to shape change into a giant?  It doesn't seem like I would since I have no intention of reallocating skills when in my giant form but you seem to know better than I do on the shapechanging aspects of this game, which, I admit, continue to confuse me.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 05:47:51 PM by John Galt »

Offline Deadmanwalking

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3534
    • View Profile
Re: How Many Scions Can You Make?
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2010, 05:49:44 PM »
Having derailed things somewhat, I'll now respond to the original questions:

I've always had fun with playing characters that were "in between" two groups, and my old group from college has been much the same way. Now that we are all reading the Dresden RPG, the various Scion-like ideas are coming out to play. It also doesn't help that we've all played White Wolf's "Scion" and "Exalted" lines, which just adds fuel to the fire.

Yeah, I'm in a similiar situation in regards to previous readings, actually. Though my group has only one actual Scion at the moment (well, not counting the Changeling).

So my question for you: what sort of Scions have you made and used in your game?

Well, in my game there's a Fetch-spawn Changeling Troubleshooter with Seelie Magic (long story), and an ex-Con Woman turned Madame daughter of Loki in my current roster, and two of the three people who are unavailable right now but going to play are Scion-like (a half-demon and a thief whose family long ago made a deal with Hermes for power). So there's those.
 
Do you prefer to use the "traditional" kind (i.e. half mortal, half deity), or have you used a different approach (such as the Changeling idea; half human, half something else)?

Depends on what the player wishes to play. I mean, I think Scions should be kept fairly rare, so as to be something special, so I don't have a whole lot of NPC ones.

What other entities have you used besides the mythological gods?

Demons and Fairies so far, but I can see using almost anything.

What of the descendants of an original scion (for an in-game example, think Mouse)?

The character whose family made a deal with Hermes is basically one of these. Or an Emissary of Power, depending on your perspective.

What is your approach to designing/building a Scion? Have you gone low-refresh with acquiring powers as they "awaken," or did you just toss your powers together and said "Go"?

More the second than the first, I think most Scions at Submerged power level (where my game's set) are probably experienced enough to have figured their basic power-set out by now.

The idea of Scions also got me to thinking of the following. . .
What about the traditional Dhampir and their various retellings? Would you just modify the Red Court Infected, or would you recreate them using the Black Court?

I might allow something like that for the Black Court, yeah. In my world, the Red Court are native to the Americas and those Dhampir legends in medeval Europe had to come from somewhere...

What about using a "minor" entity as the parent? This can still include changelings and most demons, but I'm referencing things a little less common, like specific entities/beings or a specific but rare classification of an entity? (Dragons, Valkyries, Ancient/Unaligned Fae, etc)

Well, I doubt our Half-Demon's family are going to be very powerful, and the Changeling has already surpassed his Fetch father in power (and killec the bastard).

Have you ever thought of a descendant of a non-scion hero having abilities of their ancestor? The idea of a hero that was NOT the child of a deity/entity, but his/her specific gifts have somehow passed through the bloodline tends to be an amusing plot device for me. (Examples in myth include Sigurd/Sigmund, although many other heroes can be viewed as options).

Again, depending on perspective, the Hermes-blessed thief could fall into this category.

Offline Deadmanwalking

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3534
    • View Profile
Re: How Many Scions Can You Make?
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2010, 05:51:25 PM »
cool.  I like that better.  Thanks for the help.

No problem, happy to help.  :)

Do I not need a power to shape change into a giant?  It doesn't seem like I would since I have no intention of reallocating skills when in my giant form but you seem to know better than I do on the shapechanging aspects of this game, which, I admit, continue to confuse me.

Nope, you're right. You can do that with nothing but Human Form as long as you don't shift skills around.

Offline John Galt

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 429
    • View Profile
Re: How Many Scions Can You Make?
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2010, 06:39:30 PM »
Another idea I've been considering for a scion is the son of Janus, the Greek God of Time (roughly).  He'd basically be a focused practioner who could see into the future and past in a similar way that the Gatekeeper does, but a little more detailed, and used those glimpses, along with his ingenious mind, to invent both magical and physical wonders beyond the comprehension of many wizards and engineers of his day.

He'd look something like this:

High Concept: Inventor for the God of Time
Trouble: Way Too Curious

Powers: [-3] Thaumaturgy (crafting, strength), Refinement [-1] (frequency), [-1] Improved Psychometry (sponsored)

Skills:
Great: Lore
Good: Scholarship, Discipline, Crafting
Fair: Alertness, Endurance, Presence, Conviction
Average: Resources, Driving, Guns, Athletics

Items:
Force Ring: (Weapon 5, Uses: 4) (2 enchanted item slots)
Shield Crystal (Block 8 or Armor 4, Uses: 5) (5 enchanted item slots)
Potion Slot

Laser Pistol- Weapon 3
Force Shield- Armor 1
Nuclear Grenades (4)- Weapon 6 (two zones)



Stress:
Physical: 000
Mental: 000
Social: 000
Armor: 0

Adjusted Refresh: 2
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 07:08:39 PM by John Galt »