How To Stat Sleeping Powder

[devonapple]

A good question could be can you compel someone to be taken out?

I think you can, but it depends on the circumstances, and a player might be within their rights to ask for TWO Scooby Snacks.

[noclue]

A good question could be can you compel someone to be taken out?

Sounds like you're compelling them to take a Concession. I'm cool with that, but you still won't get a throat slitting unless they agree to the compel.

[Becq]

Sounds like you're compelling them to take a Concession. I'm cool with that, but you still won't get a throat slitting unless they agree to the compel.

Not even then, since a concession would allow the conceeding player to narrate (within reason).

[Morfedel]

   Also. The idea that a sleeping person is "helpless" is bunk. The magic isn't putting them in a coma, or stasis (that would be taken out), its just putting them to sleep. From which they can roll to wake up from any stimulus that might awaken a normal person.
     I wake up from people just moving around in the same room as me (not to mention the standing over me that would be required to slit my throat). I can only logically infer that monsters and hardened criminals are, if anything, lighter sleepers than I am (as their lives are dangerous). So even if the sleep spell works. Even if the room is quiet and has no other stimuli to awaken the target, he would still get a roll to wake up and defend himself if you tried to kill him.  

Bunk?

Are you telling me that, every single time someone walks in you wake up, without fail?

People have different levels of sleep they reach overnight, including light and deep levels, REM, etc. Even a light sleeper reaches the deeper levels sometime. And unless you seriously and honestly can say It's also impossible to sneak up on you, when awake, I would find it a bit incredulous to believe that you wake up every single time someone is over you.

Yes, being asleep does not mean helpless, but it does mean almost helpless. You are unconscious, prone, unready for a response, and even when someone wakes up they have to take a moment to gauge their surroundings and situation.

Is it possible? Sure. It's highly improbable though. People have been killed in their sleep throughout time, so I'm not sure why you find my assertion so unlikely.

Even in movies and stories, we see or read scenes where the hero sneak up behind a fully awake guard and snaps his neck, strangleholds him to unconsciousness, or whatever, and those are targets that were awake but unaware.

And yet the entire idea of a sleeping man's throat being slit is somehow preposterous to you?  

[Morfedel]

Using a compel to force a concession? Not bloody likely methinks. That would make it far too easy to defeat named villains with negative refresh.

[devonapple]

Using a compel to force a concession? Not bloody likely methinks. That would make it far too easy to defeat named villains with negative refresh.

Theoretically, if the heroes have been in conflict with said villain for several exchanges, the villain would be able to buy out of a serious compel with one of the small pool of Fate Points built up from the players' previous compels and aspect tags.

[devonapple]

And yet the entire idea of a sleeping man's throat being slit is somehow preposterous to you?  

The idea isn't preposterous. But this conflict is predicated upon the narrative ruleset of this game system, where maneuvers and Aspects are there to establish plot potential, not merely a simulation of reality. The resolution mechanism of this game system relies on clear understandings of what is at stake in each conflict.

PCs and NPCs ideally enter into each conflict with a goal: NPCs going for "tranq and kidnap the PCs" have to resolve that in a conflict with the PCs players who decide their goal is "don't get tranqed and kidnapped." Even if the PCs players lose, that adds another plot element to the game: now they have to find out who kidnapped them, why, and how to escape. Heck, some players can simply be encouraged to Concede to capture because it may get them closer to their enemy and an opportunity to really foul his machinations.

If the NPCs are instead an assassin squad intending to "subdue and murder the PCs" then the stakes are obviously higher and the PCs players are going to do whatever is in their power to avoid that fate. And getting killed in one's sleep is a fairly non-heroic way to go with you game. So the PCs players are going to want chances to "shake it off" rather than get autokilled, and if they are out of FP, the rules give them the opportunity to Concede to a lesser effect, like Left For Dead.

The game can be brutal and fatal if played the right way, but the rules are designed to keep the story going, not to ignominiously snuff the PCs because they opened the wrong door. We're creating a story, not a dungeon crawl. And if the PCs players agree that the best thing for the story IS that their character snuff it, then they don't take the Concession. Problem solved.

[the_glasglow]

Theoretically, if the heroes have been in conflict with said villain for several exchanges, the villain would be able to buy out of a serious compel with one of the small pool of Fate Points built up from the players' previous compels and aspect tags.

I agree - any named villan important enough to the plot should definatly have some fate when they get to the point they're actually interacting with the PCs (by GM fiat if not actually as a result of compells).
Just because they have negative refresh shouldn't necessarily mean they have no fate.

...and conversly anyone not important enough to the plot to have fate should be able to be taken out with a compel (by the GM or otherwise) of an aspect such as "Asleep" when a PC gets to a point of being able to do something like a coup-de-gras.
It need not require a fate from the player - as a GM I would probably just give the result to them, but the underlying mechanic would be a compell of the aspect.

Storywise as a GM I would be wary about doing the reverse to the PCs - When the ninja squat comes for them, I would feel obliged to go after the person with fate first, so they could at least buy off the compell, or more likely give them an alertness against the Ninja's stealth with an invoke against their "asleep" aspect as they maneuver for "in position to give a coup-de-gras" - handily giving them a fate to buy off the compell of that aspect! - They are important to the ploy after all, and the drama is from them escaping the near death experience not succumbing to it

[noclue]

The idea isn't preposterous. But this conflict is predicated upon the narrative ruleset of this game system, where maneuvers and Aspects are there to establish plot potential, not merely a simulation of reality.

Yup, PCs and significant NPCs just do not buy it in there sleep. So, no throat slitting unless you take them out. Protagonists that are not taken out are not helpless. Put the aspect encased in concrete on them and its still just a +2 tag.

[Kaldra]

honestly at some point reality does take hold, encased in concrete may only grant a plus 2 but your still encased in concrete  and thus bum screwed. also there is a reason every dnd group under the sun maintains a watch cycle, because after waking up with a kobold standing over your chest about to kill you whilst you slept the gm aint guna pull a punch the next time the party sleeps out side a kobolds cave with no guard.

one of the reasons nonleathal dmg and drow poison is so scary for players isnt that they will be taken out of the fight its what can happen while helpless.

mechanicly sure you can throw em a fate point and givem a chance but one of the reasons death while asleep is popular is because it works, also if the players start going around killing people while they sleep well they just opened the door; its like assassinations and nukes we dont usem because we dont want others using them.

[Morfedel]

I still don't buy it. To me, if you put them to sleep or encase them in concrete, in MY games, it had better be a block or taking them out.  Such status events are too severe to merely grant a +2 modifier in my book, and taking someone out with a maneuver whrn, you know, they have his thing called Taking Out, feels like an attempt to game the system.

Now, if you wanted.them to just be Sleepy, sure, I could accept that with a maneuver - but not flat-out asleep. That's what blocks and taking outs are for.

[noclue]

Well, my point is if it's just an aspect than it isn't a severe status event. There's a way out. You're have an aspect like "Asleep!" but you're not taken out, then it's your move and you get to act. You're in concrete? But not taken out and not blocked, then there's a way to narrate out of the concrete. So, you have to do something, but you're just an action away from freedom. Use athletics and bust out, cuz the concrete isn't dry enough to hold you. Tag a spell for effect and shatter the concrete. Whatever.

Now, hypotheticals are only so useful. I'm not saying I think these are good uses of Aspects.  "Encased in Concrete!" is not a very good aspect because it implies the character is trapped. So, that's better modeled as a block.

This is all by way of saying that a sleeping powder that puts an aspect on the PC is not immobilizing them or making them helpless. If you want someone helpless you have to take them out.

[devonapple]

I still don't buy it. To me, if you put them to sleep or encase them in concrete, in MY games, it had better be a block or taking them out.  

So the ways to model a tranq dart (or other sleep-inducing effect) would involve one or more of the following:
Round 1: Block versus doing anything
Subsequent rounds: maneuvers to plant "Sleepy" aspects
Take-down: physical stress to take out the target, tagging previous "Sleepy" aspects

In the case of Tranq darts fired by gun-wielding mortal agents, and not sleep spells, would we assume the NPC can perform all three of these actions, or would we create a Stunt to reflect this particular tactical use of their Guns skill?

[Ryan_Singer]

honestly at some point reality does take hold, encased in concrete may only grant a plus 2 but your still encased in concrete  and thus bum screwed. also there is a reason every dnd group under the sun maintains a watch cycle, because after waking up with a kobold standing over your chest about to kill you whilst you slept the gm aint guna pull a punch the next time the party sleeps out side a kobolds cave with no guard.

one of the reasons nonleathal dmg and drow poison is so scary for players isnt that they will be taken out of the fight its what can happen while helpless.

mechanicly sure you can throw em a fate point and givem a chance but one of the reasons death while asleep is popular is because it works, also if the players start going around killing people while they sleep well they just opened the door; its like assassinations and nukes we dont usem because we dont want others using them.

D&D is a very different game than Dresden Files. In D&D, half the fun is the survivalist aspect. DFRPG, on the other hand, is much more of a narrative game. There will be things that are more important in D&D, and things that are more important in DFRPG. D&D often runs on the "rule of reason", whereas DFRPG runs on the "rule of cool".

[noclue]

honestly at some point reality does take hold, encased in concrete may only grant a plus 2 but your still encased in concrete  and thus bum screwed.

Actually, let's look at that a sec.

One of the nice things about FATE is you can play with Aspects in ways you never could in DnD. So, I put an aspect on your wizard "Encased in Concrete!" That means you're in concrete, but it's only a +2 to my attack. As players, we know you're still able to fight, but our characters are not so smart. So, it becomes possible to narrate casting earth magic to attack me with a wave of concussive force and when I tag the aspect for the +2 to my Athletics your concrete (which was a fragile aspect) is exploded outward from the spell and the aspect is gone. If the aspect was not fragile and sticks around, you just morph it into "buried in rubble" or "blinded by concrete dust" or something.

So the mechanics were:

• I placed an aspect on you with a maneuver
• You attacked me.
• I tagged the aspect for a +2.

But, the fiction was:

• I encased you in concrete
• You sent out a wave of concussive force to knock me on my ass
• And exploded the concrete in the process.