How To Stat Sleeping Powder

[Ryan_Singer]

Why would a sleeping creature get a defense roll of any kind, mediocre or otherwise. Is there some way a sleeping creature can avoid their throat being slit?

Seriously. Putting someone in a situation where they are completely defenseless isn't simply an aspect. No way, no how. It's not even a lower consequence.

To me, you are either "blocking" or "taking the character out."

I just don't see how you could justify it any other way considering how vulnerable the target is.

What game mechanic are you using to model throat slitting? I was assuming it's like an ambush, with the sleep casting roll replacing the stealth roll. The target isn't really as vulnerable as you are making out, their just compelled to wake up before taking non-mental actions.

[devonapple]

What game mechanic are you using to model throat slitting? I was assuming it's like an ambush, with the sleep casting roll replacing the stealth roll. The target isn't really as vulnerable as you are making out, their just compelled to wake up before taking non-mental actions.

I think the disconnect may be the result of the narrative and metagame nature of conflict resolution in the DFRPG game. Taking and giving Compels and Consequences adds a metagame element, but for players used to the more simulationist/tactical RPGs, rendering a foe helpless and then dispatching it is generally a viable option. As a result, it's hard to see "Sleeping Foe" and not figure that a followup attack would be an autokill.

That said, the DFRPG's use of consequences and such allows certain narrative advantages over purely hit-point-based RPGs. Knocking someone out in certain game systems, for instance, can be a logistical nightmare requiring large amounts of non-lethal damage and a failed saving throw, so many GMs can't really use it as a story option.

Perhaps the conversation needs to return to the context of deducing from effect.

When a Player uses a Sleeping Spell or a Tranq Dart, they want to Take Out the opposition. Whether they want to kill or simply arrest the opposition is an important choice, but one they get to make. It's their game.

When an NPC uses a Sleeping Spell or a Tranq Dart on a PC or another NPC, it's the GM attempting to create an entertaining story, having decided that kidnapping or simply tying up a PC would be a good source of tenion, or at least a way to funnel them some Fate Points.

[Becq]

I think that unless you simply say "Ok, you cut his throat and he dies <handwaved GM magic>" (which is perfectly acceptable if that's the way you want your game to go), then the closest you can get to a throat-slit is basically the same thing you'd do for snipers.  That is, rely on a series of maneuvers followed by a killing strike.  Note, by the way, that this would work reasonably well under normal circumstances, but not as well in the example we've been talking about, since the magically-induced sleep wouldn't last terribly long, and there'd be a limit to how many maneuvers you'd have time for.

As to the question of whether sleep is overpowered ... is there really that much difference between a magically-sleeping target and a magically-grappled target?  Both are basically helpless until they break free of the spell's effects.

[the_glasglow]

You could see the throat slit death as a compell of the "sleeping target" aspect, which the target could "buy out" if they had fate points to spare.

This handily makes it work easily on mooks, but the story important NPCs are likely to wake up/fight off the effects at just the right time to prevent the kill, as they will have the fate points available.

It also would reward the players by draining the NPC of fate

[Ryan_Singer]

You could see the throat slit death as a compell of the "sleeping target" aspect, which the target could "buy out" if they had fate points to spare.

This handily makes it work easily on mooks, but the story important NPCs are likely to wake up/fight off the effects at just the right time to prevent the kill, as they will have the fate points available.

It also would reward the players by draining the NPC of fate

Any game the players do that in should also be a game where that is done to the players.

[devonapple]

Any game the players do that in should also be a game where that is done to the players.

I know! Golden Rule and all that.

[Belial666]

OK, then the players will stay in their home, trying to cast a big-ass ritual to make someone else immortal. Does it mean they get to have someone else cast the same to them?




In short that kind of rule is a) not fair, b) not plausible causality-wise and c) plain not fun.

[devonapple]

Alas, "you reap what you sow" tends to work more quickly for malevolence than it does for benevolence.

[Morfedel]

What game mechanic are you using to model throat slitting? I was assuming it's like an ambush, with the sleep casting roll replacing the stealth roll. The target isn't really as vulnerable as you are making out, their just compelled to wake up before taking non-mental actions.

There doesn't have to be a game mechanic for slitting throats if the target is A) helpless, and B)jason no special power or toughness to prevent death. You just do it.

I mean, seriously, the Target is helpless, what do you need a game mechanism for that for?

[Morfedel]

I think that unless you simply say "Ok, you cut his throat and he dies <handwaved GM magic>" (which is perfectly acceptable if that's the way you want your game to go), then the closest you can get to a throat-slit is basically the same thing you'd do for snipers.  That is, rely on a series of maneuvers followed by a killing strike.  Note, by the way, that this would work reasonably well under normal circumstances, but not as well in the example we've been talking about, since the magically-induced sleep wouldn't last terribly long, and there'd be a limit to how many maneuvers you'd have time for.

I'm not sure if you understood me or not. When talking about slitting one's throat, I said in te context of after putting one to sleep. If someone is quite literally asleep, they are effectively helpless in every way. Thus, no maneuvers are needs.

At some point, te rule of logic has to take precedence.

As to the question of whether sleep is overpowered ... is there really that much difference between a magically-sleeping target and a magically-grappled target?  Both are basically helpless until they break free of the spell's effects.

Kinda what I thought, making it either a grapple or a taking it effect, depending. I'll have to reread the grapple rules.

[Ryan_Singer]

I'm not sure if you understood me or not. When talking about slitting one's throat, I said in te context of after putting one to sleep. If someone is quite literally asleep, they are effectively helpless in every way. Thus, no maneuvers are needs.

At some point, te rule of logic has to take precedence.

Kinda what I thought, making it either a grapple or a taking it effect, depending. I'll have to reread the grapple rules.

I understand what you're saying here, and I've played a D&D rogue who loved the coup de grace, but I am pretty sure this game lacks a rule like that on purpose. It's a very cinematic and character driven game. I looked again in the books, and the closest I can find to a coup de grace is the ambush trapping of stealth, which I think is good enough for the purpose of: he couldn't defend against this one attack because he was sleeping, and now he's awake, bleeding and angry.

[Nyarlathotep5150]

    Also. The idea that a sleeping person is "helpless" is bunk. The magic isn't putting them in a coma, or stasis (that would be taken out), its just putting them to sleep. From which they can roll to wake up from any stimulus that might awaken a normal person.
     I wake up from people just moving around in the same room as me (not to mention the standing over me that would be required to slit my throat). I can only logically infer that monsters and hardened criminals are, if anything, lighter sleepers than I am (as their lives are dangerous). So even if the sleep spell works. Even if the room is quiet and has no other stimuli to awaken the target, he would still get a roll to wake up and defend himself if you tried to kill him. 

[noclue]

Why would a sleeping creature get a defense roll of any kind, mediocre or otherwise. Is there some way a sleeping creature can avoid their throat being slit?

Seriously. Putting someone in a situation where they are completely defenseless isn't simply an aspect. No way, no how. It's not even a lower consequence.

To me, you are either "blocking" or "taking the character out."

I just don't see how you could justify it any other way considering how vulnerable the target is.

Because the mechanics don't model biology, they model story. You've rolled a maneuver to say "This is a story where my PC puts this dude to sleep." Awesome, that doesn't mean this is the story where you walk up and slit their throat. You used a maneuver? Cool. That's an aspect for a +2 tag for you when he tries to wake up and stab you in the face as you sneak up on him. He rolls alertness. Assuming he's a protagonist or a named NPC, if he succeeds, guess he didn't sleep very soundly. Guess this may be the story where he shook off the effects of the powder long enough to stab you in the face. Even if he fails the roll, he's still able to narrate coming to enough to prevent a throat slitting and just take stress. A maneuver can put him to sleep and give him an aspect, but it can't keep him asleep. Maybe you shoulda used it as a grapple.

[Becq]

Because the mechanics don't model biology, they model story. You've rolled a maneuver to say "This is a story where my PC puts this dude to sleep." Awesome, that doesn't mean this is the story where you walk up and slit their throat. You used a maneuver? Cool. That's an aspect for a +2 tag for you when he tries to wake up and stab you in the face as you sneak up on him. He rolls alertness. Assuming he's a protagonist or a named NPC, if he succeeds, guess he didn't sleep very soundly. Guess this may be the story where he shook off the effects of the powder long enough to stab you in the face. Even if he fails the roll, he's still able to narrate coming to enough to prevent a throat slitting and just take stress. A maneuver can put him to sleep and give him an aspect, but it can't keep him asleep. Maybe you shoulda used it as a grapple.

This is a good way of looking at it.

Maybe this is another way to look at the question: In order for you to have total control over life and death for a target, the mechanics require you to take them out.  If you want your sleep spell to allow you this level of control, then your sleep spell must take out your target.  Once you've done this, you narrate the results of the takeout, which could certainly be "He falls into a deep sleep, whereupon I walk over and cut his throat.  Fini."  But if you model sleep as a mere aspect or consequence, then you only have an aspect worth of control over the target.  So Noclue's description would be the level of control you have over them.  And keep in mind that if the subject has a Fate point, he can deny you even that level of control.

A grapple would be the best way to model what you are trying to accomplish, though make sure it's strong enough to ensure he doesn't break free before you can get that take-out result.

[sinker]

A good question could be can you compel someone to be taken out?