Rune Magic

[Mal_Luck]

In heorot didn't Gard also have runes inscribed on her axe? Wouldn't that imply that she's also capable of creating actual enchanted items, other than the potion-like effects we predominately see?

Covered by my rendition of Rune Magic

[Tsunami]

Mal_Luck I really like your system.  I would allow Consumable Runes to be written on the go... this is sponsored magic after all.  Writing down your spell effect in runes on the fly can be a pain in the rear in combat, but given you have a god for a sponsor, it should be possible.

Given that consumable runes are basically potions, you can simply declare them in the same way. No need to be able to write them on the fly.

[Drachasor]

Frankly, I am not sure Rune Magic is something that needs to be sponsored.  It doesn't seem much different from Thaumaturgy, with refinements taken for more focus and enchanted item slots.  Ms. Gard does put up wards and the like around Marcone's home does like anyone with Thaumaturgy could do.  Did everyone forget that?  Her consumable runes are just potions, and so it isn't hard for her to have them be quite powerful.

Seems to me she has something like Thaumaturgy, with Refinement x 2 for more item slots, possibly more refinement than that for a focus item to make her better at creating runes so she doesn't have to invoke as many aspects to buff them up.  With Lore 5 she can make 12 one-time effects with 10 power, and that's pretty darn potent.  One could argue her lore might be 6 or so though.

Anyhow, there's no particular need for her to have sponsored magic, I don't think, though I suppose being able to grab some debt to invoke an aspect wouldn't hurt.

[toturi]

Anyhow, there's no particular need for her to have sponsored magic, I don't think, though I suppose being able to grab some debt to invoke an aspect wouldn't hurt.

Maybe there's something about runes that make it more effective in certain ways, perhaps bypassing catches.

[Drachasor]

Maybe there's something about runes that make it more effective in certain ways, perhaps bypassing catches.

One could perhaps write up something like that.  Traditionally, from what I've read, runes have been used for divinations and placed on weapons and such.  That tracks quite well with being used as thaumaturgy overall.  If one wanted to go beyond that, one certainly could, but I am not sure there's a lot of lore regarding that (and there's nothing indicated in the books for what it is worth...not that I recall, though I am reading them again right now).

Any sort of rune magic would definitely need to be able to do wards and the like, since we know Ms. Gard did that.  She also did some divinations in Dead Beat (it's referenced when Harry is picked up initially by Marcone).  Given that it also has traditionally been used for magical items, I think starting off with full access to thaumaturgical effects makes sense.  Pick the right specializations and flavor, and away you go.

I am interested in this too, since I am make a norse-themed character (a son of Thor, in fact, though he uses some magic and isn't meant to be a clone of Thor).  Right now I am leaning towards writing up some sort of sponsored magic (though its source would be internal) kind of like Soulfire, but for Lightning (probably weaker since I don't have 5 points to spare...Lesser Soullightning or something).  Though I might just go with pure thaumaturgy.

[Tsunami]

Frankly, I am not sure Rune Magic is something that needs to be sponsored.  It doesn't seem much different from Thaumaturgy, with refinements taken for more focus and enchanted item slots.

Agreed, it doesn't need to be. But depending on how you construct your character, and how you interpret rune magic in your game, it fits sponsored magic quite nicely.

If you want some form of divine component, like Sygyrd mentioned, and have the magic be connected to Odin or others in the north pantheon, then sponsored magic makes a lot of sense. And in the case of Ms. Gard it fits very well, with her being a Valkyrie and all.

On the other hand, Rune magic could simply be an expression of mortal magic. Carving and casting runes, just like maybe some Asian wizards would use calligraphy in their magic. In that case it really is nothing else than Thaumaturgy and item crafting.

Both ideas have merit.

[Tbora]

What I would consider is this providing your GM permits.

You can take Ritual: Runes (Basically its crafting + precreated thamaturgy effects so like potions but can be way more potent)

And then with that you can take Sponsored Rune Magic, at a -1 discount as if it were full thaumaturgy, the reasoning being one is just an extension of the other, and its not like its providing anything new besides extra potion slots, a boost in complexity, and the ability to take Sponsor Debt.

[sinker]

Anyhow, there's no particular need for her to have sponsored magic, I don't think, though I suppose being able to grab some debt to invoke an aspect wouldn't hurt.

I think the reason why we got on this track is because her character write-up in Our World lists her as having sponsored magic (runes), but you're right, there's no real reason why it couldn't be interpreted in a number of other ways.

[Nyarlathotep5150]

   Also, it would be Sponsored Magic because of where Runes come from. Odin learned the Runes by sacrificing himself to himself for power and wisdom. He then taught what runes he saw fit to the other gods and chosen followers (By the Lore he kept one Rune to himself). So all Rune magic is really sponsored magic from Odin.

[Drachasor]

   Also, it would be Sponsored Magic because of where Runes come from. Odin learned the Runes by sacrificing himself to himself for power and wisdom. He then taught what runes he saw fit to the other gods and chosen followers (By the Lore he kept one Rune to himself). So all Rune magic is really sponsored magic from Odin.

That's NOT the lore on it at all.  You are right that this is how Odin learned runes (the lore is a bit inconsistent regarding him vs. other gods and mortals, but he at least believed you needed an element of self-sacrifice and perhaps to die to learn magic, and so that's what he did).   He didn't go around teaching the other gods.  It's why he, an Aesir, knew runes.  The Vanir were all well versed in runes, and there were mortals versed in magic as well.  There's nothing that supports the idea that such magic came from Odin (in fact, he was somewhat mocked because magic was believed to be unmanly) and I don't think there's any lore indicating he taught anyone magic (none that I am aware of anyhow).

As best I remember, the books give no indication that Gard has Rune Magic because Odin bequeathed it to her.  I know Our World has her having sponsored Rune Magic, but I'm of the firm opinion that this was the wrong way to handle it.  She should have instead have 7 refresh spent on Thaumaturgy and Refinements and a Lore of 5.  That easily lets her have a focus that provides +4 power (with a specialization for crafted item power or perhaps a special specialization on runes if one could define the scope of that right) and 12 magical items.  One could downgrade this to 5 Refresh and then she has to invoke aspects to power up her runes (probably saner).  Or go with 6 refresh and that lets her have her axe be a little magical and some other utility beyond just a box of runes.  It also lets her setup wards and do divinations as mentioned in the books.  Anyhow, she has no evocation and seems to have full access to all aspects of thaumaturgy (I suppose she might not have conjuration and summoning, but there's no real reason to think she can't do that if she wanted....and we'd be stating people pretty odd if we insisted they can't do something just because we haven't seen it).

[Sygyrd]

Any einherjar is, by definition, going to bear the mark (to use a game mechanic term) of Odin or Freya at the very least.  If any of them are casting, it only makes sense that they do so at their deity's sufferance.  There's no way that the dead would be allowed to walk the world without the deity they owe fealty to sending them out... sponsoring them.  Norse dead might have a conversation with you (especially if you're Odin) but they don't escape... just ask Baldur. 

[Drachasor]

Any einherjar is, by definition, going to bear the mark (to use a game mechanic term) of Odin or Freya at the very least.  If any of them are casting, it only makes sense that they do so at their deity's sufferance.  There's no way that the dead would be allowed to walk the world without the deity they owe fealty to sending them out... sponsoring them.  Norse dead might have a conversation with you (especially if you're Odin) but they don't escape... just ask Baldur. 

That's a very different thing from sponsored magic.

[Nyarlathotep5150]

That's NOT the lore on it at all.  You are right that this is how Odin learned runes (the lore is a bit inconsistent regarding him vs. other gods and mortals, but he at least believed you needed an element of self-sacrifice and perhaps to die to learn magic, and so that's what he did).   He didn't go around teaching the other gods.  It's why he, an Aesir, knew runes.  The Vanir were all well versed in runes, and there were mortals versed in magic as well.  There's nothing that supports the idea that such magic came from Odin (in fact, he was somewhat mocked because magic was believed to be unmanly) and I don't think there's any lore indicating he taught anyone magic (none that I am aware of anyhow).

   The lore does imply that Odin taught the runes to men gods. And it flat out say that he taught it to humanity. Runelore comes from the Havamal, which, is infact, the words of Odin (its later paraphrased in the Sigdrifumal where the runes where taught by a fallen Valkyrie formerly in service to Odin).
   Your assessment that magic was considered unmanly is also flat out false. The Runes where never considered unmanly. and, in fact, almost every man, woman and child knew some runelore. Seidr is seen as somewhat unmanly by modern heathens, but that is in Inference based on the fact that the lore only shows women using it (nowhere does it say its an exclusively female art). And the Lore says that priests of Freyr act in an unmanly fashion, but thats a different point.
 

As best I remember, the books give no indication that Gard has Rune Magic because Odin bequeathed it to her. 

   Actually, they give a pretty good indication of exactly this. In Heorot

(click to show/hide)

She admits to being the Valkyrie Sigrun, and being over 1000 years old. She also says that the Valkyrie aren't really Odins daughters, except in that he likes them to call him daddy when they sit on his lap.

    Then in Changes

(click to show/hide)

They finally come right out and say that Donnar Vadderung, head of Monoc securities, and Gards boss, is Odin.

     Then, as an aside, in Aftermath, we learn

(click to show/hide)

that Valkyries apparently aren't immortal spirit entities, but human women imbued by Odins power. As at the end of this story, Gard offers Murphy a job on Donnars behalf.

[sinker]

The important thing about whether this is sponsored magic or not is really where the power comes from. It doesn't matter who taught her, because mortals can teach each other "sponsored magic" (like in white night

(click to show/hide)

When daddy Raith teaches Genosa's wives a sponsored ritual. He's not the one with the power, but he did show them how to access it

). What really matters is the question is she getting it directly from another source (like odin), or is she using knowledge taught to her to use her own power. And honestly it works fine either way, pick the one you like and go with it.

The original topic of this post however is "What does Sponsored Magic: Runes look (and feel) like?" so perhaps we should think about that.

[vultur]

Your assessment that magic was considered unmanly is also flat out false. The Runes where never considered unmanly. and, in fact, almost every man, woman and child knew some runelore. Seidr is seen as somewhat unmanly by modern heathens, but that is in Inference based on the fact that the lore only shows women using it (nowhere does it say its an exclusively female art). And the Lore says that priests of Freyr act in an unmanly fashion, but thats a different point.

I think Drachasor is talking about this bit from Lokasenna [old public domain translation, so take it for what it's worth] -
(Loki is replying to Odin's mocking him for being effeminate)

"They say that with spells in Samsey once
Like witches with charms didst thou work;
And in witch's guise among men didst thou go;
Unmanly thy soul must seem."

But, yes, this is seiğr and not rune-lore. Runes were indeed used on (or as?) charms / amulets, and probably in divination, but this kind of magic doesn't have the effeminate association seid has (which does seem to have been pretty strong even in the Viking Age, though it's really hard to find anything reliable...)