Lawbreakers: Do We Need Them?

[Biff Dyskolos]

Ah! I actually have an alternate way to handle this issue: I allow the Lawbreaker bonus to apply to two things other than breaking the Law (and in both cases the character in no way suffers for it):

I like this. A character could walk a fine line, fighting the good fight but still drawing up their shady past.

[Deadmanwalking]

I like this. A character could walk a fine line, fighting the good fight but still drawing up their shady past.

Yeah, if you're a killer, well, you should be good at killing things and at understanding killers (both things Harry is demonstably good at, BTW). Those can both definitely be used for good even if you never actually break the Law again.

[iago]

Basically, it takes a lot of punch out the Free Will vs. Nature slider that is, to me, one of the greatest things about how the system imitates the world of Dresden.

This. We had very clear design goals -- canonical, setting-driven design goals, based on information from Jim -- which informed their implementation. Do away with them if that suits you for your play, but if you do I doubt you could credibly consider your game to be a Dresden Files game despite the other cosmetic similarities.

[Nudge]

But if I use an Aspect for Lawbreaking...

He brocke the Law many times so he has the aspect: My wish is your Order.

Note I'm recommending Aspect ONLY for creation, and ONLY for characters that "slipped".  (See Title Character of Game  Basically you're giving them the Stunt without reducing their refresh, with the proviso that breaking the law again WILL reduce their refresh.  Pro story, minus balance penalty, maintaining ongoing rules.

Playing someone that will happily break the law again doesn't bring up any desire from me to shelter them from the costs.

Playing someone that has a problem but is trying to get over it sounds awesomely like an Aspect.  (Expecting to fail is a different problem).   As far as getting rid of the Stunt, see the Redemption discussion in the book.  In terms of Aspects, that's character evolution, but I'd expect it to be a rare thing regardless.  The Aspect may alter, but the stigma should remain.  

(How many times does an NPC mention that Harry has the stain of Dark Magic? like, twice per book)

[Nudge]

Do away with them if that suits you for your play, but if you do I doubt you could credibly consider your game to be a Dresden Files game despite the other cosmetic similarities.

Does this apply to all variations, or just the ones that remove penalties for being a Lawbreaker?

I ask because I remember reading the creation and seeing Harry get Lawbreaker and thinking "Cool concept, but very few players are going to elect to hurt their character strength out of the gate like that when they can hurt their characters in other, more interesting ways with Aspects that DON'T cost them 1 refresh for no real benefit at all".

I love Lawbreaker as a rule of the universe.  I expect it will encourage players to avoid the easy-but-destructive paths and PCs to behave more...human.  I don't like the cost at creation, so I expect if someone ACTUALLY expresses interest in playing a character like Harry (not talking about a casual killer) that I'll not dock their refresh...unless they cross that line again once play begins.  To me that seems like a meta-game mechanic to encourage players to have "flawed" characters rather than a departure from the core concept.  Am I off-base?

[TheMouse]

An aspect would do the same. First the aspect get compelled, then the aspect invoked to better kill.

They both work in tandem. Remember, giving up the 2 refresh gives you a blanket +2 to break the law yet another time without spending fate points. The Aspect gives you fate points for killing, and it lets you spend them to be even more capable. Casual killing accrues fate points with a bonus if you're taking out helpless characters, and those points can go a ways toward making you really damned dangerous against people who can defend themselves.

Or the GM concedes...

Which, again, you need to accept.

[Deadmanwalking]

I ask because I remember reading the creation and seeing Harry get Lawbreaker and thinking "Cool concept, but very few players are going to elect to hurt their character strength out of the gate like that when they can hurt their characters in other, more interesting ways with Aspects that DON'T cost them 1 refresh for no real benefit at all".

I love Lawbreaker as a rule of the universe.  I expect it will encourage players to avoid the easy-but-destructive paths and PCs to behave more...human.  I don't like the cost at creation, so I expect if someone ACTUALLY expresses interest in playing a character like Harry (not talking about a casual killer) that I'll not dock their refresh...unless they cross that line again once play begins.  To me that seems like a meta-game mechanic to encourage players to have "flawed" characters rather than a departure from the core concept.  Am I off-base?

This is why I like my own House Rule...no inconsistency (since the benefits apply to everyone), but a PC who has it won't feel they wasted their point of Refresh.

[iago]

Does this apply to all variations, or just the ones that remove penalties for being a Lawbreaker?

Well... Specifically the erosion of your refresh, pushing you closer to being a monster that follows the dictates of its nature, is what makes the Lawbreaker stunts work in a way that maximally reinforces the themes and setting details that need reinforcing. The fact that they provide benefits for breaking that law again is the side-effect, not the main point.

Eroding refresh constrains fate point supply which gives the "darkened" aspects more teeth because it's harder to resist their compels, and you get even more juice when you give in, getting the bonuses from the ability beyond just the fate point.

To deconstruct this, I'd say alternative implementations that still have a goal of keeping things as true to the setting as possible should try to achieve these aims:

- Gradually turn the character into more of a monster (the aspect alteration effect in the current implementation does this, as does the erosion of refresh)
- Increase the power of the character in ways that enforce the breaking of the law in question (the bonuses provided by the Lawbreaker abilities achieve this)

One alternative I could see would be, maybe, to treat the Lawbreaker benefit like a point of Refinement that the character must take (but which the GM decides how is spent, maybe). Or imposing the acquisition of some kind of Sponsored Magic: by breaking the Law in question, you've "let in" something dark and malevolent that's starting to express itself through that power -- if you went that route, you'd get to model the side-effects through the sponsor debt mechanic instead. Both methods would require the "darkened aspect" thing to happen at some point. So that's where my brain goes.

But the Lawbreaker implementation that exists felt like the right fit based on what we learned.

[Korwin]

When I have time I'll try to min/max the bonus from lawbreaker.
DFRPG hasnt many boni to increase the range.
If nobody does the work before me, I'll post an Focused Practioner Mindcontroller.

Uh, not to disagree with the possibility of using Aspects, but, well, I really think my solution helps:

I'm still listing pro and contras...

As for the Free Will thing, bear in mind that by the official rules every three times you break a Law you need to change an Aspect to reflect that Broken Law.

thats for real? So Cowl and Co all have only lawbreaker aspects?

[Korwin]

They both work in tandem. Remember, giving up the 2 refresh gives you a blanket +2 to break the law yet another time without spending fate points. The Aspect gives you fate points for killing, and it lets you spend them to be even more capable. Casual killing accrues fate points with a bonus if you're taking out helpless characters, and those points can go a ways toward making you really damned dangerous against people who can defend themselves.

At this Point I'm not so shure if we don't get a little to much boni here...

Which, again, you need to accept.

I was thinking, the GM tells you. "Looks like you blasted that human per accident into the afterlife. Take the Lawbreaker stunt."
Where you thinking the same?

[Deadmanwalking]

I'm still listing pro and contras...thats for real? So Cowl and Co all have only lawbreaker aspects?

Well, remember, it twists the Aspects not necesarily changes them utterly, but yeah, every one of their Aspects is tainted by their Lawbreaking.

Here are Cowl's listed Aspects (aside from his High concept: Dark Wizard, Darker Agenda, which seemed redundant to discuss), and what Laws could've Tainted them off the top of my head:
Plans Within Plans (Third or Fourth Law, easily. Maybe Seventh depending.)
Nigh Invincible (First Law, at least potentially.)
Allies of Convenience (Any, really. It's a lack of empathy Aspect.)
Cautious, Not Timid (Probably Third, Fourth, or Seventh.)
Magic From Beyond (Seventh, obviously.)
Deliberate and Methodical (Could be either First or Third or Fourth or Seventh depending on context.)

[iago]

More importantly, Cowl's aspects don't talk about any other part of his life. They are all about how he is a master villain planner type who treats people as expendable resources. Because that's all he is at this point.

EDIT: I'd also add that the whole twisting of your aspects, the erosion of free will, all of that stuff -- that's most important as a *player character* experience. I wouldn't hold too strong to the idea that every NPC who breaks Laws aplenty must be 100% by the book as far as those side effects go. They're already well past the pale, well into being a confirmed and unrepentant monster. The whole erosion/twisting thing has the most bite -- in terms of storytelling, in terms of at the table experience -- when it's happening to someone who hasn't entirely gone over to the Dark Side yet.

[TheMouse]

At this Point I'm not so shure if we don't get a little to much boni here...I was thinking, the GM tells you. "Looks like you blasted that human per accident into the afterlife. Take the Lawbreaker stunt."
Where you thinking the same?

You still need to accept the concession or decide to take the person out that way. The player does get to choose whether their character kills someone or not.

Besides which, concessions aren't what was going to happen but worse. They're someone giving up some of what they would have lost in a way that is more convenient to the person taking it than taking the time to beat them senseless.

The GM just saying, "Oh, and you accidentally killed someone even though your roll doesn't indicate it, nor has any part of the fate point economy pushed you to making this decision," doesn't fly. That's not how that works.

[KOFFEYKID]

When I have time I'll try to min/max the bonus from lawbreaker.
DFRPG hasnt many boni to increase the range.
If nobody does the work before me, I'll post an Focused Practioner Mindcontroller.
I'm still listing pro and contras...thats for real? So Cowl and Co all have only lawbreaker aspects?

Here is the best I could do for optimizing a lawbreaker, note that this guy is going to most likely be an NPC in most games, unless you slowly accrue lawbreakers.

COST   ABILITIES
-3   Evocation (Spirit, Water, Earth)
-3   Thaumaturgy
-2   Kemmlerian Necromancy
-2   Lawbreaker (First)
-1   Lawbreaker (Third)
-2   Lawbreaker (Fourth)
----
-13

Evocation Specializations:

Spirit (Power +1)

Thaumaturgy Specializations:

Necromancy (Control +2, Complexity +1)

Focus Items:

Necromancer's Staff (Necromancy Control +2, Spirit O. Power +2)

Rank   Skills
5   Conviction
4   Lore, Discipline, Endurance
3   Presence, Alertness, Athletics
2   Deceit, Rapport, Intimidation
1   Guns, Melee, Fists

Necromancy Evocations (Using Spirit as the Base Element) +11 Control, 8 Shifts of Power for a Necromancy evocation aimed at killing somebody.

-edit-

Though, to be more rounded it would be a refresh 16 character

COST   ABILITIES
-3   Evocation (Spirit, Water, Earth)
-3   Thaumaturgy
-1   The Sight
-0   Soulgaze
-2   Kemmlerian Necromancy
-2   Lawbreaker (First)
-2   Lawbreaker (Third)
-2   Lawbreaker (Fourth)
----
-15

[Moriden]

I've said before and i still stand by it that the mechanical aspects of the lawbreaker stunt are mostly redundant. Other then the bonuses it gives you , which more or less equal out refresh wise, What it dose is every x times you break the law change one of your aspects to in some way reflect that law. If a player is responsibly managing there character then if there repeatedly breaking a law they will be useing there minor milestones to change there aspects to reflect this, and if there not, its fully in your rights as st to "insist" so we don't need a thing on there character sheet enforcing this. Now do we need lawbreaker as a negative refresh mechanic to tell us when a pc has gone to far? Personally i would say no. the hellfire using pyromancer with full lawbreaker first is a playable charecter mathematically [-8] , but i don't think anyone would say hes "less far gone" then a wizard pc who maxed out on refinement and made "one mistake" it may be a bit more challenging with out any numbers to say when a character is to far gone. but with responsible, honest players and storytellers all of the current affects of the lawbreaker stunts can be [and probably should be] simulated with out ever putting a single lawbreaker stunt on a character sheet.


I know my voice doesn't count for much but i strongly disagree with Iago on this point. if it applies to pcs, it should apply universally to npcs as well. I also cant think of a npc who this should apply to that it doesn't conceptually seem to, i would probably add a bit of a house rule that once you have changed all of your aspects to reflect your lawbreaking you dont have to change them anymore. and i might allow them to eventually be changed to be something else. but even then they'd likely have to in some way reflect the law violations that are now a part of your nature. . Ive even argued that all of morgans aspects probably reflect the first law. This is obviously just my interpretation and opinion though.

EDIT: I'd also add that the whole twisting of your aspects, the erosion of free will, all of that stuff -- that's most important as a *player character* experience. I wouldn't hold too strong to the idea that every NPC who breaks Laws aplenty must be 100% by the book as far as those side effects go. They're already well past the pale, well into being a confirmed and unrepentant monster. The whole erosion/twisting thing has the most bite -- in terms of storytelling, in terms of at the table experience -- when it's happening to someone who hasn't entirely gone over to the Dark Side yet. Smiley