Duels between mortal Practitioners and the Law of Magic

[Falar]

Well, if the whole party is that kind of person, then you're probably not running a 'normal' Dresden Files game where you're playing the more-or-less good guys. You're probably playing a villains game. Which is cool, that's something that everyone should be a part of sometime. But then you don't really need to worry about having Lawbreaker stunts and possibly should throw together a different way of approaching things.

Seriously, if your theme of the party is sociopathic people who view everyone else as monsters, then you're not going to end up running into the same things that this system is built for. You're more or less going to have to make your own take of the Fate system and the world as a whole.

[Moriden]

thus the "im not sure how useful it would be" say they where biomancer's mechanically though, and latter learned evocation.

[Moriden]

Seriously, if your theme of the party is sociopathic people who view everyone else as monsters, then you're not going to end up running into the same things that this system is built for. You're more or less going to have to make your own take of the Fate system and the world as a whole.

i view the laws as a metaphysical reaction to actions, not morality. so i would enforce it equally weather your a sociopathic monster or a nun. thus id permit you to play the rampant killer. as long as you can still control yourself. [this being expressed as having refresh left in the fate system]. As to weather or not this would be a "normal"{ dresden game. i would probably contend that any game run in the dresdverse is a normal game. there no reason you couldn't tell a story about the vampire wizard war from the red court perspective for example. it would be a very different type of game but still very canonical. if you loose your last refresh you just become one of the

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Mindless "feeder" vampires that we saw in changes

Id even argue that this distinction makes more sense then a wizard being unplayable because he went one point over a changeable and arbitrary mechanical line

[KOFFEYKID]

Yeah I dont understand why a Red Court Infected with a Refresh Level of 12, a Refresh Adjustment of 7 who becomes a full red court (refresh level 11) would be an NPC.

Aside from the fact that apparently Red Court Vamps are always NPCS.

[Deadmanwalking]

Yeah I dont understand why a Red Court Infected with a Refresh Level of 12, a Refresh Adjustment of 7 who becomes a full red court (refresh level 11) would be an NPC.

Aside from the fact that apparently Red Court Vamps are always NPCS.

Because by becoming Red Court you cease to be the person you were before and become a complete monster, and incapable of remaining a normal, functional, PC.

I've got nothing against, say, an all Red Court game, but they do not play well with others and are not acceptable PCs in the vast majority of games. Free will isn't nthe only measure of PC-ness. Most games won't allow a serial pedophile/child murderer, despite that not having any Refresh cost at all, and the character likely being fully possessed of his own will.

[Falar]

And I guess I just fall under a very different us and them mentality. You're not the same person once you turn. You've gone monster. You may have memories of your old self and all that jazz, but you're not your old self. The demon that lay in you, trying to get you to turn over control is now totally running the show. He's not sitting their cheering you on to eat a human. He's you now. The hunger half is now all in control. You might be there in some way, shape or form, but you're not even in the copilot seat anymore. You're in the passenger seat. And not even first class, or business. You, sir, are all the way back in coach class, in the middle of an aisle between a fat guy and a lady with an annoying voice who just won't stop talking.

[Moriden]

Most games won't allow a serial pedophile/child murderer, despite that not having any Refresh cost at all, and the character likely being fully possessed of his own will.

A strong argument could be made that such people are "consumed by there nature" actually. alote of research suggests that they cant stop themselves weather they want to or not. so id traet such people as ones who took to many mortal stunts. and ran out of refresh. If you wanted to play a mortal charecter with the compulsion to kill id probably treat it in a similar way, your fighting against it, but if your refresh gose to low. you lost your "free will" and its now to much apart of you to resist.

This is entirely my opinion

[Moriden]

The hunger half is now all in control.

This actually comes up in regards to red court

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in changes

. personally if someone wanted to play a full red court vamp and it fit the rest of the game id allow it, but id also allow  a full demon if you could justify it, and i personally dont put much stock in free will vs nature as a deciding line weather to play.

I kinda have to view it purely as a game balance issue. because if i was stating myself i would very firmly be in the nature camp not the free will one. various forms of ocd, and antisocial disorder make people extremely averse to acting in new or unusual ways. i view acting "improperly" and put a great deal of stock in "tradition and custom" as a grave sin for example. so it takes a great deal to get me to even consider doing something like lieing. In fact the way the Fae are portrayed makes a great deal of sense to me.

[Deadmanwalking]

Speaking as a Psych Major, there's an element of truth in what you say regarding child molesters and others with uncontrollable compulsions...but only an element. People, all people, can still choose, some choices are just more difficult than others. Some of them require work, a lot of it, and some people don't choose to break their patterns. Which can be either good or bad depending on the pattern in question. But everyone can do it if they have the strength of will and the motivation.

The FATE system, while by no means an accurate simulation of the human psyche, actually handles this fairly well, via the ability to refuse Compels but only at a cost. But that applies to everyone, not just people with diagnosed disorders or issues. People with those kinds of things just have 'Aspects' that result in more societally inappropriate compels, not necessarily less Fate Points to throw around.

[Moriden]

But that applies to everyone, not just people with diagnosed disorders or issues. People with those kinds of things just have 'Aspects' that result in more societally inappropriate compels, not necessarily less Fate Points to throw around.

Okay for example. For me to even consider lieing i would have to be facing something very compelling. such as lie or go to jail, lie or get your house repossesd. Even in such drastic situations i would be far more likly to word something in a technically truthful manor then to actually lie. and there are several other "taboos" that i am more or less constrained by. to me its this kind of thing that they mean when they say a human can be "constrained by there nature" meaning essentially that a pc who has become an npc can not act outside of its aspects, trouble , and calling. im certainly not argueing that this is a realistic interpretation of the majority of people or that fate is a good model for human behavior simply useing my self as an example of  a verry specific thing.