Refinement, Advancement and Focused Practitioners

[paul_Harkonen]

Focused Practitioners seem to be in a difficult position when it comes to refinement, both at character generation as they advance.  To compare, wizards may take refinement to add two specialization points to their Thaumaturgy or Evocation, provided they follow the pyramid structure, or add focus item slots.

Focused Practitioners on the other hand, can only add focus item slots, and never have the ability to refine and improve their spellcasting on it's own merits.  This means that a Focused Practitioner, for example a pyromancer, who wishes to use spells as his or her primary attack method either, must take a few incredibly potent focus items, and is in deep trouble if they are ever without them, or will rapidly fall behind the power curve as other characters slowly tap into ever increasing wells of power.

In theory they could advance to sorcerers and buy Evocation instead of Channeling as they advance, but this requires a fundamental change on the character, one that the player may not want.  They could also start buying mortal stunts, or other powers, but again, this has a lasting impact and change on the character.

My concern here is that all of the information and commentary on Focused Practitioners is that they can be incredibly powerful, in very specific areas (see Dresden's Note in Your Story) which doesn't seem to be born out given the difficulties of purchasing refinement for these characters.  All of the notes say they are specialists, not simply flat out weaker.  I don't know what the solution is necessarily, but I felt pointing it out and asking for thoughts might spur my thoughts and help figure out what to do to deal with this.

[Moriden]

I've found a lot of problems are solved by simply ignoring the templates entirely as anything other then vague guidelines.

[Hoar Grimnir]

This was discussed quite a bit in this thread:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,16839.0.html

Hopefully it'll give you some ideas on how to house rule it.

[paul_Harkonen]

Thanks for that link, although I don't think it answered the question particularly well.  It seemed to devolve into a discussion solely about different enchanted items, whereas I'm somewhat more curious about the potential for increasing casting ability.  This may just be one I have to deal with a house rule, or lots of focus items.

[Llayne]

I'd do a limited form of refinement for channeling. Each point in refinement would only give you one specialization instead of two. that means you could only take it 3 times, to get control (for example) up to +2, and power to plus 1.

Far more limited than refinements to evocation, but then again channeling is the limited form of evocation anyway.

[Moriden]

In any game's i run focused practioner's who conceptionally can not advance to being wizards do to an inability to branch outside there field can get as many levels of refinement as they can/want to pay for.

[Jared]

Thanks for that link, although I don't think it answered the question particularly well.  It seemed to devolve into a discussion solely about different enchanted items, whereas I'm somewhat more curious about the potential for increasing casting ability.  This may just be one I have to deal with a house rule, or lots of focus items.

The last post in that thread is from iago, one of the RPG's developers (I believe?). He basically said that yes, the limit on Refinement is a limitation on FPs/sorcerers and is intended. You won't, however, break things too much if you toss the Refinement-limit rule. What was intended, though, was that you would progress from FP to sorcerers to wizard, then you would start using Refinement.

I think that issue would really come into play for sorcerers. As iago said, the books consistently put wizards as being in a weight class above sorcerers, but if you remove the Refinement limit, then the only mechanic that sustained that division is removed. So the books have a difference between a sorcerer and a wizard, but if they're both able to Refine similarly, then a sorcerer is basically a wizard that doesn't take more than three magic elements (unless you allow for that, as well) and don't have to take Sight/Soulgaze. Which is to say that there's no difference at all (especially since they probably will take Sight, at least).


TL;DR: Go ahead and let FPs take Refinement, if you want. If you want to let sorcerers take it too, it's your game, just be aware that then there's really no difference between a sorcerer and a wizard (when the books strongly suggest that there should be).

[Barodahn]

I think a lot of this is in issue really due to the power levels and the concept this create
I see it as you can do a Focused Practitioner feet in the water, a sorcerer at Up to your waist, and a full wizard only at chest deep.

The sorcerer not being able to take refinement makes total sense, they is a CLEAR difference between sorcerer and wizard in ability, which is represented by refinement, and they they are often not born wizards, and thus lack the sight and the constitution sometimes.

The issue I see is more with focused practitioners, which is described more as an innate talent with a particular element or thamaturgic area.  If you want to play just a pyromancer or just a ward specialist  and not deal with other elements or thaumaturgy, then doing so at high level, without the ability to refine your one element, or wards, or whatever, you do top out and can't go far.

This does NOT fit with harry's description of them being "specialist" not generalist, and that they can be VERY powerful in their chosen area, (see YS 76), or binder if he doesn't use focus items.  So for them to fit this description, the lack of being able to increase their command of their element through refinement does not make a lot of sense in my mind. 

Now, perhaps making refinement only add 1 to their element makes sense, or apply refinement normally, or an Idea i just thought of, what if refinement could also add just to a ROTE spell, to control or power individually, rather then globally, so that it has to be more spread out, and that would make it feasibly possible to still use the support structure 

I am not arguing with anything anyone has said, I am just curious if people would agree that this is where the issue is mostly coming from?  (and curious what people think of the idea that just occurred to me while i was writing this)

[Korwin]

I see no problem with letting Focused Practioner (and not Sorcerer) gain Refinement (They can only get to +2/+1).

[srl51676]

It seems to me the solution is to add a condition to FP refinement. It works normally but is lost if the character progresses beyond Ritual or Channeling. This would represent the loss of focus in order to become a more generalist sorcerer. For higher and power more "realism" they could be retained but the PC would lose the option to purchase more until they fulfill the qualifications for full wizard. This would reflect the greater experience with the chosen theme/element and the need to spend time broadening ones skill. These changes are logical to maintain internal consistency. An FP of equal refresh cost should be able to mop the floor with a generalist wizard with in his own specialty. The wizards advantage comes from breadth of options and flexibility but it stands to reason that a pyromancer of equal experience should be able to do things with fire that would astound a full wizard. if one practiced making a basket blindfolded and backwards from half court all day everyday you should be able to repeat this feat at will something not even an NBA player could duplicate however this does not make you ready to play for the bulls. 

[Deadmanwalking]

Uh, guys? Sorcerer's can have a level of Refinement each for Thaumaturgy and Evocation. This is, coincidentally, enough for the +1/+2 Specialties in a particular element. There's not really the need for much of a workaround, here.

[KOFFEYKID]

Also note that FP's who have Ritual (Item Creation) can go longer without needing to upgrade to thaumaturgy than any other type of FP.

They can a +3, a +2 and a +1 (Yay for +3 Strength, +2 Uses and +1 Focus Items, thats some wicked potion brewing).

[Jared]

Uh, guys? Sorcerer's can have a level of Refinement each for Thaumaturgy and Evocation. This is, coincidentally, enough for the +1/+2 Specialties in a particular element. There's not really the need for much of a workaround, here.

We were speaking beyond that one level. The point that I was making was that there was still the issue of letting FPs get their +1/+2, then the sorcerers not being able to exceed their power level in that element.


Someone said that their would suggest ignoring the templates as anything more than suggestions. That's a valid point (and essentially what people were talking about, in a roundabout way), but I think that it still ignores the issue of this ceiling on FPs. Without totally breaking the rule set, I was wondering if anyone had considered creating 'Must: Channeling' supernatural powers? Give the FPs the ability to take bonuses/abilities related to their chosen element.

[iago]

The mistake is thinking that when Harry says specialists can be REALLY POWERFUL, he's talking about something other than Superb and Great spellcasting skills and a little bit of focus item bonus action. That *is* Really Powerful.

[JustinS]

The mistake is thinking that when Harry says specialists can be REALLY POWERFUL, he's talking about something other than Superb and Great spellcasting skills and a little bit of focus item bonus action. That *is* Really Powerful.

I expect there are a lot of average (+1) skill minor talents running around.
Being a sorcerer who is mostly average, and good(+3) at one thing is likely a significant person in the local mystic scene. These are not the folk who are likely to be the big bad whatnot due to their magical power.