Why Martial Arts?

[Victim]

The Martial Arts stunt allows you to use Fists as a perception/knowledge skill for making assessments and declarations, but only for fighting style.  It's a pretty standard example of adding a new trapping to a skill.

But why would a skill swap stunt be the requirement for half of the Fist stunts?  If you already have other knowledge/perception skills to make assessments - which shouldn't be too unusual - then you're essentially spending a refresh just to access the other stunts (and get a more limited version of something you already have).  It's not like those stunts are amazing either - Redirected Force basically equivalent to Riposte; Armed Arts isn't too far from Hand Eye Coordination.

Sure, you can use Fists whenever, as opposed to needing a weapon out, so they can apply more often.  However, it seems like you're already paying for that in lower damage.

Martial Arts was the only stunt in the book that served as a requirement to other stunts - as opposed to SotC, where all skills had stunt trees.  Why restrict Fists, of all skills, in this way?  It seems a little like too much focusing on the name of the Stunt as opposed to what it does.

[Deadmanwalking]

This is an excellent point, actually. None of the Stunts that follow Martial Arts seem good enough to absolutely require prerequisites, at least to me, and I think it really is the only example of stunts requiring prerequisites still in the book.

[iago]

Generally giving a stunt a prerequisite is about allowing that stunt to be just a tidge more potent (possibly instead more broad). We figured martial arts would be a way to chart that sort of thing out, though really, you can ignore the prereq element if you like. (But I think it feels more real if people have to *understand* fighting styles before they can gain their benefits.)

[Victim]

Generally giving a stunt a prerequisite is about allowing that stunt to be just a tidge more potent (possibly instead more broad). We figured martial arts would be a way to chart that sort of thing out, though really, you can ignore the prereq element if you like. (But I think it feels more real if people have to *understand* fighting styles before they can gain their benefits.)

Well, it doesn't seem like the ability to make analyze fighting styles is unique to martial arts, since other skill types can do the same thing without an inherent limitation.  How someone buys that capability didn't seem to be of great importance.

Second, it seems weird that the default assumption seems to be that someone with Superb Fists wouldn't understand what they're doing.  I mean, that character is essentially operating at a free tag above a Fists 3, MA character (which seems pretty good for someone not planning on punching monsters in the face).  Effectively, the advantage that character with MA can gain with study is applied reflexively by the other character.

Finally, what MA based stunts are more potent than usual?  Guns has something like Armed Arts, letting the character use Guns for certain weapons.  Weapons has Riposte, which is a lot like Redirected Force (except probably better).  There's Lethal Weapon, which is +2 damage with a limit that comes up a lot.  Weapon 2 can be quite good though.  However, it seems less like a bonus for a prerequisite stunt and more like something to make up for the inherent lack of damage to Fists attacks.  Other skills can get something like +1 damage for a stunt (target rich environment/way of the bow for Guns, Off hand weapon training for melee) and start with more damage.

[SaintAndSinner]

I was just going to drop the prerequisite.

[Rel Fexive]

Or just call it "Seasoned Brawler" instead.  Or come up with your own stunt to do it.  There's nothing to say you can't do either

[toturi]

Finally, what MA based stunts are more potent than usual?  Guns has something like Armed Arts, letting the character use Guns for certain weapons.  Weapons has Riposte, which is a lot like Redirected Force (except probably better).  There's Lethal Weapon, which is +2 damage with a limit that comes up a lot.  Weapon 2 can be quite good though.  However, it seems less like a bonus for a prerequisite stunt and more like something to make up for the inherent lack of damage to Fists attacks.  Other skills can get something like +1 damage for a stunt (target rich environment/way of the bow for Guns, Off hand weapon training for melee) and start with more damage.

I agree. I would like to see how "tidge more potent" Martial Arts stunts are supposed to be. The people in charge of the RPG have done a good job of toning down the stronger stunts, now I would like to see them toning up the stunts if they are supposed to be more potent than the usual.

Many RPG writers often water down abilities that they think are too strong, they often drop the ball when dealing with abilities that are weaker than they should be. I am curious to see if the Dresden RPG is an exception.

[luminos]

I agree. I would like to see how "tidge more potent" Martial Arts stunts are supposed to be. The people in charge of the RPG have done a good job of toning down the stronger stunts, now I would like to see them toning up the stunts if they are supposed to be more potent than the usual.

Many RPG writers often water down abilities that they think are too strong, they often drop the ball when dealing with abilities that are weaker than they should be. I am curious to see if the Dresden RPG is an exception.

The Dresden RPG is the exception because the system has been designed for maximum flexibility, so that if you don't like the stunts offered for fists, you can and should make up your own stunts.  That's why the stunt chapter starts by giving guidelines on how to create stunts.

[toturi]

The Dresden RPG is the exception because the system has been designed for maximum flexibility, so that if you don't like the stunts offered for fists, you can and should make up your own stunts.  That's why the stunt chapter starts by giving guidelines on how to create stunts.

That is not really different from asking the GM to house rule away the Martial Arts requirement for those stunts.

And what you say could also be applied to some of those stunts that were deemed to be too strong. Why then did the writers move so quickly to nerf them?

[luminos]

That is not really different from asking the GM to house rule away the Martial Arts requirement for those stunts.

I think that that is more of a feature of the system than a problem.  The game is built to be house ruled.  If you think about it, fate points are just a system of elaborate temporary "house rules"

And what you say could also be applied to some of those stunts that were deemed to be too strong. Why then did the writers move so quickly to nerf them?

I can offer speculation, but I'd need examples of the stunts you are talking about.

[void]

A couple reasons. One, the stunts are all example stunts. Sure, players can take them (and should, if they precisely fit their concept), but they're only there to give concrete instances of the rules guide they started with.

Two, everywhere that they can, they try to make sure that all the examples are representative of approximately what the RPG designers would want in their games. Not what should be in every game, but 'when we roll, this is how we roll'. They're often selected because their particular flavor is exemplar of the relative flavor our authors prefer... but not because they're what the authors expect us to run.

They've said it time and time again, it's our game once we're holding it.. My attempts at alterations have mainly been to verify "Are you sure this is the tone you want to convey?"

So if you have concerns about the Martial Arts tree, approach it analytically, make comparisons, make suggestions for the apparent tone, and ask them yourself if this is what they actually wanted.

Then you'll have your answer. Me, I'm too busy giggling over enchanted items, but that's probably the drugs talking.

("Oh, I get it, it's a MAAAAAAGICAL diorama." "Shut up, it's a precise arcane instrument." "That looks like you should populate it with lego men." "SHUT UP.")

[Jetan]

On a similar note, I was struck that Killer Blow looked great for a SotC stunt, but underpowered for Dresden. The difference is that having the stunt at all already cost a refresh, and therefore represents the loss of a fate point. So effectively it looks like it costs two fate points for a +3 damage bonus. Any character likely to have the Killer Bonus stunt probably has enough aspect that if they were willing to blow two fate points for a particular swing, they could tag something relevant to combat.

It breaks even if you use it twice in one refresh period, but you had to pre-commit a fate point to it, and it only breaks even. So if you use it three times, it starts to make up for having lost flexibility. Does that seem appropriate, or, more likely, am I missing something?

If the effect is indeed not adjusted for the impact of is refresh cost, then I would ask whether there are other stunts that are similarly underpowered because they effectively pre-spend a fate point.

Aside: I should note that I'm loving the pre-order!

[luminos]

I see killer blow as being a case of "if you really absolutely must wreck complete devastation" kind of thing.  Sure, its more economical to just tag two aspects in most circumstances, but killer blow can be used in conjunction with regular aspect tagging to take damage beyond the potential of a guy who can just tag aspects.

[Deadmanwalking]

Yeah, Killer Blow seems weak. Maybe up it to +4 damage? That'd make it break even if used once, and start being an advantage if used two times or more.

[toturi]

I can offer speculation, but I'd need examples of the stunts you are talking about.

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,17278.0.html
That may not be the best example but evidently the issue was settled swiftly, all on the same day if the posts were to be believed.

The issue of Martial Arts was raised on 20 April. In both cases, it was Iago that responded. So let's see how much longer it will take them to make changes to Martial Arts, if at all.