Evocation: Control is better than Power

[Victim]

Control (Discipline) bonuses are more useful than power (Conviction bonuses) when using evocation.

First of all, the normal combat mechanics favor accuracy.  To use an extreme example, let's compare a Weapon 2 with 8 to attack versus a weapon 5 attack with 5 accuracy (a more extreme 8/2 split would involve taking backlash).  Each extra success on attacking adds to damage.  When the weapon heavy attack barely hits against a defense 5 target, it does 5 damage.  Against that target, the 8 accuracy attack has 3 successes, so it hits for weapon 2 plus 3, also 5.  If the target's defense is 0, then both attacks hit for 10 damage.  And if the defense is more than 5, then the accurate attack is the only one doing damage.  So accuracy, and thus Control/Discipline, have a clear advantage because they'll do at least as much damage as a more power shifted attack.

Next, spellcasters have an easy way to get additional power beyond their Conviction.  Each evocation with some power to it costs at least 1 stress.  And you can overchannel to get additional shifts beyond your Conviction by taking additional mental stress.  After you have 1 point of mental stress, both a 1 point hit and a 2 point hit will fill in the #2 mental stress box.  So you can essentially overload your spells for free: a caster with 4 mental stress boxes can cast 4 evocations at power; or 1 at power, 1 at power +1, one at power +2, and one at power +3.  Gee, which one sounds better?    Of course, you need to have enough control rating to handle that boosted power without taking backlash or wasting it in fallout.  Having control somewhat over power helps with using the extra juice safely.

Of course, someone planning on attacking with magic a lot probably wants Conviction 3 as a minimum to get 4 mental stress boxes.  And both skills are obviously important!

However, with a Superb skill cap, Conviction is worth another look because it can grant another mental consequence.  OTOH, you might need it, since it would be harder to control your spells (without a control heavy focus item).

Note that I'm only really looking at how the skills affect spellcasting.  Maybe you like conviction for some other use, as well as casting.  However, it seemed like Discipline could be used as a defense against many mental and social attacks, whereas Conviction comes up mostly for the stress track and the Holy powers, as far as I remember.

Unless I'm missing something.

[Korwin]

I was/am under the impression, that in Spellcasting you choose the power of the spell and the damage is determined by how much power you use in the spell.
So no bonus damage for an high to hit roll.

[Victim]

I was/am under the impression, that in Spellcasting you choose the power of the spell and the damage is determined by how much power you use in the spell.
So no bonus damage for an high to hit roll.

Under evocation attacks, it says that shifts of power increase the weapon rating of the attack without contradicting the normal rules for attacks.  And the example has Harry doing 12 stress with an 8 weapon spell because of his to hit roll.

[Deadmanwalking]

You're mostly right on attacks. However, as you point out, having Good or Superb Conviction is a vast advantage due to the extra spells per scene, making Conviction slightly better than Discipline as a spellcasting skill even as Control is slightly better than Power.

Additionally, Control in excess of your Power is worthless on all non-Attack spells, since they require Power for every shift of effect (a 6 shift block requires 6 power...no matter what you roll on Discipline).

[Shinto_Knight]

so under a succesful evocation attack the total stres is equal to the shifts of power AND the block?

[luminos]

so under a succesful evocation attack the total stres is equal to the shifts of power AND the block?

Yeah.  The shifts of power you summon up determine weapon strength, and the discipline roll acts like the to hit roll of other attacks.  So if you summon 7 shifts of power, and then roll your discipline just high enough to control that power, then its like you rolled a 7 on an attack using a weapon:7.

[Korwin]

Ah, I see. Magic Attack is an exception to the normal Magic rules witch are an exception to the normal rules...

so under a succesful evocation attack the total stres is equal to the shifts of power AND the block?

Power and Discipline* (after subtracting the Defense roll).
*not Block

[Knave]

If it really bugs you, you could house rule that any evocation that is successfully controlled and uses Power -2 or less doesn't generate stress, provided you still have stress boxes available on your track.

Up side -> more minor spells, and your casters keep going for a bit longer.
Down side -> it's a bit fiddly

[SoulCatcher78]

Conviction = weapon value.

Attack with Discipline. + dice roll = to hit

Defend with resisting skill + roll = hit or miss

If it's a hit then damage = weapon value + shift difference (on to hit vs defense) - resistance (armor/toughness/etc).

[Lanodantheon]

Having a higher conviction gives you a higher base strength. Yeah, accuracy can turn a strength 2 attack into a 6 stress hit if it hits well enough, but a 6 stress base hit is still a stress 6 base.

Plus, if you take fallout as opposed to backlash you might still do something to the target and/or the environment that can let you take the target down.

Having a high Discipline and low Conviction means you're throwing pebbles at people but you might hit better, having a high Conviction and low Discipline means you are throwing a boulder but even if you don't connect you might do something.

Harry Dresden supports the magical thug approach to spellcasting. Otherwise he'd concentrate on his discipline and stop setting buildings on fire.

Plus, as previously mentioned, your defensive spells will have no chance of failing but no oomf. You +5 Discipline, +3 Conviction guy may have this Strength 3 armor/block he can easily control, but Harry's +5 Conviction, +3 Discipline gives him a shield with substance, Strength 5. Note: I do need to read up on the spellcasting rules more.

But, this discussion is one of the reasons my Warden Pup character, who is an evocator, keeps his Discipline and Conviction even at +5. Best of both worlds. He is subtle and he hits like a truck (which has been hell to design spells for). And he has Resilient Self-Image, so he can throw a lot of spells around every scene if he takes consequences that go away at the end of the scene.
But his Lore stinks because he's the Pup.

[Sir lerks-a-lot]

Here's another consideration: what if the giant troll needs to go down NOW before he hurts the kid.

With a higher conviction you're going to be able to put more power into your spell, and you can absorb the excess over your discipline with psychical stress and consequences, leaving mental stress and consequences to boost the spell even more.  With a lucky roll and the use of fate points, you can control the spell.

The discipline guy is gonna be close in power to the conviction guy, but he is gonna be a little lower.  He'll be able to keep it up longer, and be more accurate in the long run, but you only have 1 action to stop the monster.  He can use his fate points to boost the power, but then he has a harder time controlling that power, since you can't use the same aspect twice on the same action and you only have a limited supply of FPs.

Another bonus to high power low accuracy hit as opposed to multiple low power hits, is that when you do hit, the defense of the target only reduces the power once.

[GoldenH]

I notice you put Evocation in the topic. What about for Thaumaturgy? Seems like you'd want Conviction there.

I rather like conviction in the system, since there is so much that you need a good base power for, it's not all about doing damage.

[luminos]

Here's another consideration: what if the giant troll needs to go down NOW before he hurts the kid.

With a higher conviction you're going to be able to put more power into your spell, and you can absorb the excess over your discipline with psychical stress and consequences, leaving mental stress and consequences to boost the spell even more.  With a lucky roll and the use of fate points, you can control the spell.

The discipline guy is gonna be close in power to the conviction guy, but he is gonna be a little lower.  He'll be able to keep it up longer, and be more accurate in the long run, but you only have 1 action to stop the monster.  He can use his fate points to boost the power, but then he has a harder time controlling that power, since you can't use the same aspect twice on the same action and you only have a limited supply of FPs.

Another bonus to high power low accuracy hit as opposed to multiple low power hits, is that when you do hit, the defense of the target only reduces the power once.

If you want to hit someone as hard as you can with a spell, a weapon: 3 spell with a 7 on the discipline roll (using a fate point for control) will do the same damage as a weapon: 5 spell with a 5 on the discipline roll (using a fate point for control), so your example doesn't give a good reason for favoring conviction over discipline. 

[Deadmanwalking]

I notice you put Evocation in the topic. What about for Thaumaturgy? Seems like you'd want Conviction there.

I rather like conviction in the system, since there is so much that you need a good base power for, it's not all about doing damage.

Eh. For Thaumaturgy you usually have enough time to channel the necessary power even with low Conviction, though you notably can't get Thaumaturgy Specialties in Power, and in a rushed situation (such as using Thaumarurgy in combat) high Conviction is indeed a must.

If you want to hit someone as hard as you can with a spell, a weapon: 3 spell with a 7 on the discipline roll (using a fate point for control) will do the same damage as a weapon: 5 spell with a 5 on the discipline roll (using a fate point for control), so your example doesn't give a good reason for favoring conviction over discipline. 

This is precisely right. As I said before: Control is avtually somewhat better than Power on attacks. However, Conviction is the slightly better skill otherwise, and on non-attack evocations, Control in excess of your Power is useless.

[Victim]

Additionally, Control in excess of your Power is worthless on all non-Attack spells, since they require Power for every shift of effect (a 6 shift block requires 6 power...no matter what you roll on Discipline).

Yes.  Excellent point.

Fortunately, the game offers a way to vary your power vs control settings differently for attacks versus defenses: Focus items.  A caster can still favor control on attack spells by taking a Blasting Rod (or equivalent) loaded with control bonuses (instead of power or an even split), and then bolster his shield with a defensive power focus item.  So you can get the benefits of both approaches.

But, this discussion is one of the reasons my Warden Pup character, who is an evocator, keeps his Discipline and Conviction even at +5. Best of both worlds.

Yeah, that does get you the most juice in your spells.  But it's also 2 top level skills, which is big chunk of your resources - not all evokers will put that much into it, but they still might want the most bang for the buck.  And you can still shift adjust your tradeoff via specializations and focus items even if both skills are at cap.