Some Thaumaturgical Questions

[Korwin]

I'm rereading the Thaumaturgical section, and some Questions are popping up...

If the complexity of the spell is greater than your Lore, your wizard must enter a preparation stage during which he researches the spell further, assembles the necessary components, acquires additional sources of power, and finishes the spell construct.

I assume, if you do that once and need the exact same spell again (like summoning and binding the same creature again) you don’t need to research the spell again.

Should there e a rule for research between sessions? (Like Item creation.)

Inflicting a mild disease on a fairly hale target—say, Good (+3) Endurance—would be a 13 complexity spell: 7 to match the best Endurance roll possible, 4 for the target’s stress track, and 2 more for the mild consequence.

The goal is to inflict an Mild consequence right? Wouldnt a 11 complexity spell be enough, since if they dont take at least mild consequence they pass out and you can dictate the illness?

So a curse that acts as a maneuver to put Bad Luck on a target might start from “15 minutes” (about the length of that particular scene), and you could make it last all day by adding five shifts of complexity to the spell.

But only the first tag is free, right? It’s there to be invoked, but doesnt do a thing by itself.

Make Declarations
As part of preparation, you can use your skills to declare you have access…

Hmm, can a skill be used multiple times for the same ritual for different declaration?

Accept or Inflict Consequences, page 269
…Actually committing murder on a sentient being as part of a spell grants the wizard all of the shifts for all levels…

Page 248
There are various sources that a wizard can draw on to power his spells:
…
Unwilling magical creatures; the deliberate sacrifice of humans or animals.

First magical?
Second, how much shifts would an animal grant?
Third, sacrificing animals isnt against the law, right?


I’ll try an Containment, Summoning and Binding Ritual.
Please tell me if I missed something…


My sample will be an Air-Spirit who is supposed to carry the summoner around.

I’ll give the Spirit

• inhuman Strenght
• Wings
• Veils aka. Glamours (so nobody is wondering about that flying wizard…)

 
What conviction should that being have? I’ll go with Superb +5 for the example…
Containment:
5 + 4 +2 for an Aspect to be on the save side is an +12 complexity containment.

Summoning
Would be the same +12 complexity.

Binding
Binding is a full conflict.
We need (+4 for lucky dice, +4 for stress boxes, +20 for all conditions [inkluding extreme condition], +5 to extend the duration of afternoon to a month) a +33 complexity ritual.

Casting that thing would’nt be that hard, if we play it save (+1 per exchange) and took our time.

Researching it would need many declarations or skipped scenes…

[Korwin]

Can someone at least control my example?
Should an extreme consequence be in the calculation? (wrote condition instead of consequence in my example)

[Ihadris]

Hey Korwin, I'm still learning the rules myself but Ill take a fair shot at some of this. I won't answer anything that I'm not too sure on as I don't have the time to look stuff up in the rule book right now.

I assume, if you do that once and need the exact same spell again (like summoning and binding the same creature again) you don’t need to research the spell again.

You would need to do it again. In terms of game mechanics the preparation and the research is what makes up the difference between your wizards capabilities and the requirement of the spell. You'd still need to make up that difference again to cast the spell. In terms of narrative colour Harry still has to replace items used in rituals, meditate & prepare himself, wait for certain times of day etc all of which are things that can be used during the research phase to help. For example: Contacts roll to get the items, dicipline to meditate and prepare and tagging a scene aspect for the times of day.

Hmm, can a skill be used multiple times for the same ritual for different declaration?

My first reaction to this is to say no. A player could just repeatedly roll their top skill to meet the requirements of the spell. Perhaps if they could frame it differently?

First magical?
Second, how much shifts would an animal grant?
Third, sacrificing animals isnt against the law, right?

I don't think it has to be magical.

(click to show/hide)

Viktor Sells used rabbits.

Further more in the example on page YS:301 it gave +2 bonus as a component. As for the Law, I would say no. The laws seem there to protect "mortals" in the sense of humans and you wouldn't be killing it by magic for the ritual.

5 + 4 +2 for an Aspect to be on the save side is an +12 complexity containment.

Correct, that is the safes minimum except that 5+4+2=11.

+20 for all conditions

I remember this being in one of the examples. Just to point out, incase you took it from one of the examples and didnt realise, that it is at 20 due to the extra mild consequence from having such high conviction.

+33 complexity ritual.

As far as I can see yes it is.

I hope that goes someway to answering your questions. I can try having a go at the others one when I have time to look through the rule book.

[Korwin]

Hey Korwin, I'm still learning the rules myself but Ill take a fair shot at some of this. I won't answer anything that I'm not too sure on as I don't have the time to look stuff up in the rule book right now.

Thanks for the answers, even if I dont agree, by talking about it many things get clearer.

You would need to do it again. In terms of game mechanics the preparation and the research is what makes up the difference between your wizards capabilities and the requirement of the spell. You'd still need to make up that difference again to cast the spell. In terms of narrative colour Harry still has to replace items used in rituals, meditate & prepare himself, wait for certain times of day etc all of which are things that can be used during the research phase to help. For example: Contacts roll to get the items, dicipline to meditate and prepare and tagging a scene aspect for the times of day.
My first reaction to this is to say no. A player could just repeatedly roll their top skill to meet the requirements of the spell. Perhaps if they could frame it differently?

You brought up Victor Sells, did he research his spell new after each casting?

I don't think it has to be magical.

(click to show/hide)

Viktor Sells used rabbits.

Further more in the example on page YS:301 it gave +2 bonus as a component.

Yeah, I think thats an typo

As for the Law, I would say no. The laws seem there to protect "mortals" in the sense of humans and you wouldn't be killing it by magic for the ritual.

I was thinking the same.

Correct, that is the safes minimum except that 5+4+2=11.

Dont you need one more sucesses than the defender?

I remember this being in one of the examples. Just to point out, incase you took it from one of the examples and didnt realise, that it is at 20 due to the extra mild consequence from having such high conviction.

No I counted. But I missed the extra mild consequence so it would be +22 for the consequences +26 if the target has the stunt for 2 extra mild consequences.

Will reread the example again, I think now I will understand it better.

[Ihadris]

You brought up Victor Sells, did he research his spell new after each casting?

It details it on YS:301. In game terms you'd only be able to pull the spell off as it is detailed in that example once because much of the difference was met with consequences, including an extreme consequence.

However if you look back to the book he had to wait for the next storm, he had the Beckits involved each time (Re-read the 'Using Help' section on YS: 272), he killed a few rabbits each time (harry sees their corpses hanging up), the entire room was dedicated to creating an ideal atmosphere for the ritual so more then likely had a scene aspect on it.

On top of all of that he would have had to find something to connect the ritual to the intended victims. So in those terms yes he would have had to research some new parts of the spell each time.

Dont you need one more sucesses than the defender?

So you do. When I read the scentence I thought you were saying that 5+4+2 was 12 but you were adding an extra to be above the chance of them invoking an aspect. Apologies for not taking a bit more time to read it properly.

No I counted. But I missed the extra mild consequence so it would be +22 for the consequences +26 if the target has the stunt for 2 extra mild consequences.

Yeah. Thats me answering off the top of my head and not checking things again, I forgot the value of the consequences.

[Korwin]

Reading the example now.

The target dies instantly as his heart explodes from his chest, assuming that a 32-stress attack does the trick—an extreme, severe, moderate, and mild consequence for a total of 20 shifts, plus 10 shifts to fill up a strong physical stress track (4+3+2+1) plus two more shifts for good measure to ensure a “taken out” result.

In this example its only a strong opposed skill (so no extra mild consequences), but why are 10 shifts needed to fill up the physical stress boxes?
(And Endurance isnt really calculated in...)

Sells needed to do some significant preparation to cast this.

At the moment (unless I miss something) the rules dont support this.
If Victor takes his time. Only one shift per exchange... OK strike that Victor Sells only has Diciple Fair +2. For him faster is safer...

[Korwin]

Reading the example now.
In this example its only a strong opposed skill (so no extra mild consequences), but why are 10 shifts needed to fill up the physical stress boxes?
(And Endurance isnt really calculated in...)

I get it now, why Endurance isnt calculated in, its because the difficulty of the Endurance check is allready off the charts...
But why all physical stress boxes need to be filled is still a great question mark for me.
The Ritual need only inflict one more stress than stress boxes are there (consequences are allready accounted for).
The only reason I can imagine at the moment, would be: for flavor, to simulate the brutality of the spell...

[iago]

Best possible defense roll + Maximum stress track length (4) + mild consequence (2) + moderate consequence (4) + severe consequence (6) + 1 is usually a good yardstick for figuring out how hard it would be to kill someone outright.

[Rel Fexive]

You brought up Victor Sells, did he research his spell new after each casting?

I think the main thing about this is not to think of it all as "research" (as in "research the spell to use") but to phrase it as "preparation".  If his Lore isn't high enough to just do the spell there and then (because he doesn't fully grasp the underlying principles required, or some such) then he has to check some texts, practice the 'moves' necessary to cast it and get all his ritual components in place before he starts.  When he does it again he still hasn't got the proper know-how to just get on with it even though he's done it before so he has to check he's got it all correct again before he starts.  If he'd been able to try it a few more times who knows, maybe he'd have gotten clued in to those principles (i.e. increased his Lore) and not had to refer to his notes to make someone go pop.  I mean, he only got two or three full-on goes with it (that we know of) before he met his end.

It's like anything - if you don't really know how to do something properly you check the manual or textbook to make sure you get it right, and you keep checking it until you've got it down pat.  This goes double for big powerful killing magic which can fry you if you get it wrong.

[iago]

It's like anything - if you don't really know how to do something properly you check the manual or textbook to make sure you get it right, and you keep checking it until you've got it down pat.  This goes double for big powerful killing magic which can fry you if you get it wrong.

Airline pilots who've flown thousands of hours still have to go through the preflight checklist every time.

Some tasks just need that kind of preparation, and the time you don't do it could prove fatal.

[Korwin]

Airline pilots who've flown thousands of hours still have to go through the preflight checklist every time.

Some tasks just need that kind of preparation, and the time you don't do it could prove fatal.

In that case, preparation is really a better name than research. 

How about some of my other questions? *hope*

[iago]

How about some of my other questions? *hope*

I'm hoping Lenny will get a chance to pop on here and talk about the construction of the rituals. I wasn't as into the nitty gritties of that part of the development process.

[Korwin]

My sample will be an Air-Spirit who is supposed to carry the summoner around.

I’ll give the Spirit

• inhuman Strenght
• Wings
• Veils aka. Glamours (so nobody is wondering about that flying wizard…)

 
What conviction should that being have? I’ll go with Superb +5 for the example…
Containment:
5 + 4 +2 for an Aspect to be on the save side is an +12 complexity containment.

Summoning
Would be the same +12 complexity.

Binding
Binding is a full conflict.
We need (+4 for lucky dice, +4 for stress boxes, +22 for all conditions [inkluding extreme condition], +5 to extend the duration of afternoon to a month) a +35 complexity ritual.

Casting that thing would’nt be that hard, if we play it save (+1 per exchange) and took our time.

Researching it would need many declarations or skipped scenes…

Another question: How good a workspace for researching Ritual is needed?

Page 140:

... the quality of a workplace determines the highest possible difficulty of a “question” or project that you can pursue there.

[iago]

Another question: How good a workspace for researching Ritual is needed?

That's more on the "simple action" level, a single Lore roll, so one step of preparation, not the entire complexity total of a ritual.

[Korwin]

Page 140 Workspace

Code: [Select]

Lore   -   Arcane Research      -   Arcane Library
Lore   -   Arcane Spellwork &   -   Ritual Arcane Sanctum

As described in Scholarship (see page 142), the quality of a workplace determines the highest possible difficulty of a “question” or project that you can pursue there.

Page 142

As such, deeper, dedicated research is something that might happen when you fail a Scholarship check. Provided you are willing to spend time researching (and that the answer can be found), the only questions are how long it will take you and how good a workspace you have access to (usually a library for book things, a laboratory for experimental research, etc.) to discover the answer.

The quality of these workspaces determines the hardest possible question you can answer within them (so a question of Good difficulty requires a Good library or better).

The description under Scholary Research doesnt really mesh with the description of Ritual Research.

But the table under Resources indicates Workspace is needed, but if its not important for the difficulty of the ritual...
For what do I need the Workspace (Arcane Library, Ritual Arcane Sanctum)? Do I need an Workspace for Item Creation?
Or can I use it like an supplementary skill?