Pure mortal to supernatrual character

[EldritchFire]

He may still be a pure mortal from a flavor point of view.
But from a Rules perspective he is not. And the refresh bonus is simply an mechanic in the rules meant to balance power-users and non-power-users.

No Powers (includes IoPs) -> pure mortal bonus
1 or more powers (includes IoPs) -> No pure mortal bonus

Imho there's really nothing more to say about it.

This. YS73 says it clear as day " Pure mortals may not take any supernatural powers. In exchange for this restriction, pure mortal characters get a +2 bonus to their starting  refresh.  If  this  character  ever  takes  a supernatural  power,  this  refresh  bonus  goes away immediately (which may be mitigated by dropping one or two mortal stunts)."

An item of power is in the supernatural powers chapter, and therefore is a supernatural power. If you have a power, you don't get the mortal bonus.

Michael, Charity, and father Forthill are not pure mortals. They have various powers.

Batman is a pure mortal. He just has loads of stunts representing his "wonderful toys." And boat loads of Fate Points to spend on declarations, to boot.

-EF

[The Mighty Buzzard]

it seems to me that there are very few (pure mortals) within the system then; at least from a playable standpoint.

If you think so, you're playing them wrong.  PMs can spend fate points like they're going out of style as long as you didn't end up with a 1 refresh from taking so many stunts.  And if you did take that many stunts and still can't hold your own in a fight, you were obviously trying to build something other than a slayer of monsters.  Which is fine.  Harry would have been royally screwed if he didn't have Butters around to call on as well as Murphy, Marcone, and Hendricks.

However, when commnents or arguements are made that a pure mortal cannot fight a loup garou or something, people are likely only refering to people with just stunts; no IoP or powers.

A PM could fight the complete heck out of a loup garou, so long as they had more than a handfull of inherited silver.  Think Murphy with a Desert Eagle .50 cal and a clip full of inherited silver slugs.  All it takes is a good sized silver tea set or a drawer full of forks and spoons.  That's what, one fate point spent, maybe two?

[Masurao]

A PM could fight the complete heck out of a loup garou, so long as they had more than a handfull of inherited silver.  Think Murphy with a Desert Eagle .50 cal and a clip full of inherited silver slugs.  All it takes is a good sized silver tea set or a drawer full of forks and spoons.  That's what, one fate point spent, maybe two?

Meh, I still feel that the flavour of a PM fighting a Loup Garou can be wrong. Murphy wouldn't be able to slug it out and win by herself, she still needed loads of mystical back-up. Or, as described somewhere else, a very lucky and precise shot with a .50 cal anti-vehicle sniper rifle. I mean, the thing's got Supernatural frickin' Speed, if you don't do it in one shot, you're screwed: either it guts you or it gets away. Again, this is flavour/logic versus mechanics, but I just feel the Loup Garou even being mentioned should have PCs and players alike peeing their pants :p

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Meh, I still feel that the flavour of a PM fighting a Loup Garou can be wrong. Murphy wouldn't be able to slug it out and win by herself, she still needed loads of mystical back-up. Or, as described somewhere else, a very lucky and precise shot with a .50 cal anti-vehicle sniper rifle. I mean, the thing's got Supernatural frickin' Speed, if you don't do it in one shot, you're screwed: either it guts you or it gets away. Again, this is flavour/logic versus mechanics, but I just feel the Loup Garou even being mentioned should have PCs and players alike peeing their pants :p

Oh, absolutely.  It had Harry all but peeing his pants and he usually doesn't have the good sense to be that afraid.  I think the sheer number of people who died in the precinct house was plenty of evidence that nobody should be blase about tackling one, no matter their template.  I just disagree that supernatural templates are inherently superior in combat to a well thought-out and played PM.

Take Harry and Marcone.  Yeah, Harry can call up a wall of lava but in the same scene Marcone blew the entire freaking cavern up.  It's all about being prepared and using what you have access to to the best of your ability.  PMs have quite a knack for thinking up new and creative ways to destroy the heck out of things and they have the fate points to spend to actually succeed if they're smart about it.

Flat footed in their Spiderman jammies, yeah, I'd rather have some evocation handy.  Prepared and with a good Resources/Contacts/etc... though, PMs do just fine.

[Masurao]

Oh, absolutely.  It had Harry all but peeing his pants and he usually doesn't have the good sense to be that afraid.  I think the sheer number of people who died in the precinct house was plenty of evidence that nobody should be blase about tackling one, no matter their template.  I just disagree that supernatural templates are inherently superior in combat to a well thought-out and played PM.

Take Harry and Marcone.  Yeah, Harry can call up a wall of lava but in the same scene Marcone blew the entire freaking cavern up.  It's all about being prepared and using what you have access to to the best of your ability.  PMs have quite a knack for thinking up new and creative ways to destroy the heck out of things and they have the fate points to spend to actually succeed if they're smart about it.

Flat footed in their Spiderman jammies, yeah, I'd rather have some evocation handy.  Prepared and with a good Resources/Contacts/etc... though, PMs do just fine.

We are in agreeance!

[zenten]

I mean, think of it, unless you're a knight of the cross or have a boatload of inherited silver conveniently weaponized you're pretty much screwed when it comes to a Loup Garou no matter what your template.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Eight words.  Ambush with an M60 shooting inherited silver rounds.  What Harry points out for wizards is even more apt for PMs; being prepared ahead of time makes a world of difference.

Given proper time, planning, numbers, and resources, PMs could even take out most of the Faerie realms in the Nevernever.  Up to and including the Erlking on his home turf.

[polkaneverdies]

Physics varying widely in the nevernever would put a heck of a crimp on attacking erl on his home turf. Obviously bringing a few tons of iron might turn the tide.

[Lanir]

When you talk about what's possible and you get too far afield from what's probable, at some point you're effectively just changing the topic.

With a long enough lever you can move the world. The challenge isn't in realizing this, it's in making the lever.

[computerking]

With a long enough lever you can move the world. The challenge isn't in realizing this, it's in making the lever.

And finding a place to stand.

[Masurao]

It's good to see all these ideas about PMs, really helps me get a feel for how they can be played and how they can work on their advantages. Of course, Harry mentions more than once that bringing in mortal authorities to supernatural business is like dropping an A-bomb. I really love how, in the novels, Harry stays scared sh**tless when it comes to Marcone, really show how dangerous that particular mortal is

[The Mighty Buzzard]

When you talk about what's possible and you get too far afield from what's probable, at some point you're effectively just changing the topic.

With a long enough lever you can move the world. The challenge isn't in realizing this, it's in making the lever.

There are levers enough already made for us poor PMs.  The challenge isn't in making one, it's in seeing the huge pile of them already all around you.

As to possible and probable?  That's all on the player and GM.  With enough planning and resources possible skips right over probable and becomes almost certain.  But that's boring.  The really good fights are the ones that Vegas would give 3:1 or higher odds against you.  Which is why PMs are so much fun to play; the longer the odds, the better the victory dance.

[Sanctaphrax]

Loup-garou aren't really that tough.

If Dresden were better optimized, he'd have had little trouble with it.

[Nyarlathotep5150]

Loup-garou aren't really that tough.

If Dresden were better optimized, he'd have had little trouble with it.

   How is that, considering Loup-Garou are all but immune to magic? Dresden was already optimized in the best way any character could be to deal with a Loup-Garou. He had a preesstablished Aspect of inherited silver. The only thing that CAN stop it.

[UmbraLux]

   How is that, considering Loup-Garou are all but immune to magic?

I kind of agree with Sanctaphrax here - not that loup garous aren't tough but that they shouldn't be all that big a challenge for a prepared wizard.  Dresden was simply unprepared during the first encounter and then at a big disadvantage (and relatively unprepared) at the second.

But indirect magic (maneuvers, some blocks) will work.  Just have to set them up - preferably ahead of time.  Then take advantage of them with inherited silver (assuming you're trying to kill it).  Indirect magic does take more time than a simple attack and is often more complex to set up.  Setting that up while under attack is..."less than optimal".