Spellcasting and Stress

[Walker_Blade]

Am I reading it correctly that you take a minimum of 1 mental stress for each spell that you cast in a scene?

So, even assuiming that you had a legendary conviction, that you can only cast 6 spells before taking consequences?  that doesn't seem right, Even with consequences, you could only go up to 9 spells in a single conflict and that is with 1 consequence of each level except extreme.  We have seen many examples of Harry casting more than 9 spells in a scene before, so am I missing something here?  Am I overlooking a way of resisting getting that stress in the first place?

[JosephKell]

Legendary Conviction still leaves you at 4 boxes.  For every 2 levels above Good (+3), you get an extra Mild Consequence for that track (Conviction gives Mental consequences).  So Epic OR Legendary gives you a total 4 boxes and 2 Mild Mental Consequences.  But yes, Legendary does allow you to go to 8 shifts of power on 1 mental box.

You still have to roll Discipline meeting or exceeding your shifts of power to avoid backlash/fallout.  And your Discipline roll + accepted backlash equals the value the target resists against (either counterspelling or dodging).

But remember, Stress boxes go away as soon as you have a bit of downtime.  But Epic Conviction means you can do 4 spells per scene without using any mild consequences (which Epic Conviction gives 2 extra).  If you can think of a way to start mental recovery, you can get rid of those mild consequences every other scene.  So 4 spells in a normal encounter, 7 in a big one.

But even a 5 shift power is dangerous.  If your target rolls at your final Discipline, that is a 5 physical attack.  So anything without some good toughness is going to be spending consequences just to be able to surrender or escape.

[Walker_Blade]

you are right I misread what high conviction got you, but that still gives you only 9 spells in a scene, which does not seem like nearly enough.

[Kelvor]

Perhaps you could add a house rule that Rote spells of below a certain power level, like Lore or Conviction -1, cost one less box of stress? That way Harry can toss around Fuego a few more times in the big fight scenes.

[Walker_Blade]

that definitely works as a work-around.  I was just surprised as thios is one of the few things I saw in the whole book that didn't seem to support the Novels.

[Lanodantheon]

The RPG does a damn fine job of simulating Dresden Action, but it came after JB's work. Just saying...

[JosephKell]

Don't forget about Refinement specializations and foci bonuses.

When you are talking about Epic/Legendary skills, it isn't insane to assume +2 or +3 specializations and focus bonuses.  So that can be another +4-5 for EACH.

Thaumaturgy [3] gives 1 point of specialization and 2 item slots.
Evocation [-3] gives 1 point of specialization and 2 item slots.
Refinement [-1] can give 2 points of specialization.

3 points of specialization can get you +2 Accuracy (offensive and defensive) in X and +1 in Power (offensive and defensive) in X.  (Remember highest specialization bonus is capped by Lore and it follows the same balancing rules that skills do).

2 Item slots can get you +1 offensive accuracy with 1 element and +1 offensive power with 1 element.  (I am assuming the other items are used for defense or whatever since this is a low Refresh character)

Wizards require The Sight [-1] so these together is -8 refresh.

Assuming a Submerged game, Superb Conviction and Discipline give you +7 (5+1+1) and +8 (5+2+1) when attacking.  So even with a Power 7 spell, your target is resisting 8+4dF, even if a target has an Athletic stunt (like Acrobatic), they maybe get +1 to dodge.  So unless your target has Athletics high on his skills, they are going to get hit (well I guess full defense can help, but that means they aren't attacking you).

As an aside, once you get to a point, Discipline is better than Conviction.  As excess Discipline gives extra shifts of damage which a target that exceeds Discipline takes no damage at all.

But I think this whole 4-6 shots a scene further supports the "it's easier to just use a gun" argument.

To me, evocation magic represents a "pocket bazooka" not a sidearm.  You don't see a lot of military units carrying that many shots.

The limit on shots is a good reason for wizards to not get into the same zone as their target.  Dresden of Storm Front has Conviction 5 and Power (Fire +1) for a "Fire Conviction" of 6.  If he were being rushed by 4 vampires who are all in the same zone (but he isn't in there), he is better off going with 6 shifts of power split for Weapon: 4 and 2 for Area.  Even still he probably wants to spend a fate point to power up his Discipline roll (probably "Not so subtle, still quick to anger", to get it to Fantastic (+6) before rolling 4dF) since Rampires have Athletics Fair (+2).

At Fantastic, Dresden doesn't have much to fear (81.5% chance of having at most 1 level of backlash, which is worth taking in this case).  With Athletics of just 2, there is a good chance the Rampires are going to face Weapon: 4 + at least 2 (so 6 physical stress).  They are going to have to tap into their Feeding Dependent powers.  However since it is a zone filling attack, there is a question of whether the Armor: 1 of their inhuman toughness applies (the fire is EVERYWHERE).  So they are going to start taking consequences (can NPCs take consequences?) or get taken out fast.  (There is like a 81.5% chance that they only get Athletics 3 or worse on their roll, which would be 7 physical stress.)

The attack margin jokes about using shifts of power for movement, but it didn't seem to factor in applying movement to your target.  I think it would be fair to apply 2 shifts of power in exchange for moving the target a zone.  In Fool Moon Dresden blasts MacFinn through several walls, then across a street.  That sounds like a LOT of zones.  In the case of vampire attacks during the day, I imagine launching them out of the shadows and into the open sun is probably a more effective strategy.

[vampmike]

i havent read the PDFs just yet, but you are forgetting possibly the most important aspect of the question - what is a scene and how long is it?
Fate says that a scene has a purpose and once that purpose has been obtained the scene is over. A scene could be a conflict, a 'talkie' [as my players call them] or anything of the sort, thus ranging from a minute to hours.   

thus the ability to cast 8 spells in the space of a few minutes is spectacular [in the case of combat], no other game ive ever played in gives you that level of power. and this does seem to be in line with the Books, its only when harry is in conflict is it that the books point out that magic is stressful, and as the above poster said guns are easier. when hes in his lab etc or not in combat its only the 'big' magics, or the magics hes not familiar with that seem to wear him out.

hope this helps

[LCDarkwood]

Food for thought, with heavy spoiler blocks just in case:

* Almost every example in the books I researched for the game had Harry getting off about four or five spells before the description starts to talk about his fatigue, as a general rule. Longer fight scenes, he pushes to his absolute limits, which suggests consequences to me. I suggest you look at the

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White Night Ramirez/Harry vs. Vampires fight and check out what Harry's done when he gets to the line, "...and all the fighting I'd done, I was beginning to bump up against my physical limits. My legs wobbled, and my spring was more like the lazy, hot, and motionless end of summer."

You'll note it's not as many spells as you probably think.

* In big fights, Harry uses his force rings, which cost him no immediate resources. In later books, these have multiple uses per session. Enchanted items are a smart wizard's friend.

* Harry has been

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using sponsored magic in the form of hellfire and soulfire for several books now. One of the benefits of sponsorship is that the sponsor can pay the costs for you. That gives him the ability to do extra stuff without taxing himself, at the cost of sponsor debt. After the line I quoted above, note that he brings Hellfire to the party pretty much *every* time he does anything magical for the rest of the fight. This is one reason why it's difficult to be a "pure" wizard and play in higher leagues of supernatural power.

Hope that helps clear up some stuff about how the novels influenced the final design.


-Lenny

[Lanodantheon]

i havent read the PDFs just yet, but you are forgetting possibly the most important aspect of the question - what is a scene and how long is it?
Fate says that a scene has a purpose and once that purpose has been obtained the scene is over. A scene could be a conflict, a 'talkie' [as my players call them] or anything of the sort, thus ranging from a minute to hours.   

A scene in FATE is a dramatic unit of action. The characters come in with an objective and the scene ends when the players complete their objective or do not. A fight scene, for example begins with whatever led up to the fight (breaking into an office, the PCs looking for some stuff, etc.) and ends when the fight is resolved. A Crime Scene Investigation scene would begin when the PCs show up to investigate and end when they either find clues at the scene or fail.

A scene is just a dramatic beat. An example from the books would be when Harry shows up to investigate The Murder in Storm Front. The scene takes place from the time Harry enters the hotel to the time he leaves and gets into Marcone's car. Simple scene.

A more arbitrary way would be to say, "When the GM feels like it." So a scene could be five minutes or an hour.

[Belmonte]

* Harry has been

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using sponsored magic in the form of hellfire and soulfire for several books now. One of the benefits of sponsorship is that the sponsor can pay the costs for you. That gives him the ability to do extra stuff without taxing himself, at the cost of sponsor debt. After the line I quoted above, note that he brings Hellfire to the party pretty much *every* time he does anything magical for the rest of the fight. This is one reason why it's difficult to be a "pure" wizard and play in higher leagues of supernatural power.

Question on this.  The book says the sponsor can 'pay the costs' for a spell, then goes on to list one thing: once per roll, the sponsor can give you a free tag on an aspect without paying a fate point, this gives you debt.  Are you saying that one could also have the sponsor instead of doing this, eat a point or two of stress for the spell for debt as well?

If so, this makes sense. I just don't see it in the book other than the vague 'pay the costs'.    I wanna be sure I got this right, I'm going to be doing a game with wizards and one of my players wants to eventually be Mab's bitch.  Er.  Swear a pact with Mab.

[SaintAndSinner]

Question on this.  The book says the sponsor can 'pay the costs' for a spell, then goes on to list one thing: once per roll, the sponsor can give you a free tag on an aspect without paying a fate point, this gives you debt.  Are you saying that one could also have the sponsor instead of doing this, eat a point or two of stress for the spell for debt as well?

I'm curious about this also.  I'd say yes in my game but not sure if this is in the RAW. 

[Belmonte]

I'm curious about this also.  I'd say yes in my game but not sure if this is in the RAW.

Yeah, me too.  By one reading it works -- you pay the cost and can also get a free tag (An aspect tag isn't a cost of the spell itself really).  By another reading, that's the cost it pays and that's all.

I kind of like letting the person get debt.  The compels are fun and I'd say 1-2 stress is about equal to a fate point, I /think/.  But I wanna know what's RAW and what's not.

[LCDarkwood]

Yeah, check out "The Dark Powers" sidebar - I'd head that under "draw more than a single invocation" stuff.

And I'd consider the once per session/scene limit thing a suggestion, rather than a rule.

(In other words, I'm telling you that it might read a bit differently when it goes to print and we update the PDF.)


-Lenny

[Walker_Blade]

Question: The mental armor 1 provided by the Conviction stunt Tower of faith would reduce spellcasting stress wouldn't it?  and we know from the books that one can have faith in magic, so as long as you did the equivalent of praying (probably a quick meditation or an extended drawing up of power) you could cast the easy stuff basically at will.