Harry's Stats plus Assorted Other Stat Revisions (Small Favor through Cold Days)

[narphoenix]

Hey Deadman. Would you be willing to stay Nicky D (Nicodemus)? Or is he unstattable?

[Deadmanwalking]

Sure, I'm reading Small Favor now, and may well do several of the Nickleheads in consequence (though not for a bit, I just started). Their stats are likely to be more similar to OW's than many of my other stat spreads, if only because the OW writeups are more nebulous, as are mine likely to be.

[Locnil]

Mostly? In calling up the uber-ghouls. Unlike, say, Thomas, he has no good reason to be associated with the Deeps, and opening portals to the Nevernever wherever you like is either spell-work or worldwalker, and as it's an Outsider powered ability magic seemed more likely. Harry also refers to his mind-mojo as a spell, and while that's not quite how I statted it, it seems a worthwhile thing to acknowledge. Also, he referred to Cowl as 'Master' which implies an apprenticeship of some sort, and if not in magic, in what?

It can definitely be argued he lacked it, but I think there's decent support for the idea of him having it. OW also gives him magic, and while I disagree with the stats in there in their particulars, they're still a pretty good source in many ways.

I always thought he could call up the ghouls only because of Cowl, that is to say, Cowl gave him an enchanted item or something that let him open portals. And as ofr the relationship, Vittorio may have meant about how Cowl is higher in the heirachy of the Circle than him.

Also, in the DV, everything supernatural is technically a spell. Magic is magic is magic.

[Deadmanwalking]

I always thought he could call up the ghouls only because of Cowl, that is to say, Cowl gave him an enchanted item or something that let him open portals. And as ofr the relationship, Vittorio may have meant about how Cowl is higher in the heirachy of the Circle than him.

All possible. Like I said, it's a matter of opinion and interpretation. He was explicitly Outsider powered and did some stuff that looked like magic, so I went with it. He doesn't use it in direct combat, so dropping it is pretty easy if you want to.

Also, in the DV, everything supernatural is technically a spell. Magic is magic is magic.

True to some degree, but Harry rarely so refers to the abilities of nonhuman supernatural creatures.

[Jebm]

Could you do an updated version of Martin and Susan, when you get around to re-reading Changes?. If Vitto gets Deep Cover Agent then Martin definitely should.

[Deadmanwalking]

Could you do an updated version of Martin and Susan, when you get around to re-reading Changes?. If Vitto gets Deep Cover Agent then Martin definitely should.

Absolutely. And I'd be tempted to give Martin both Fantastic Deceit and Deep Cover Agent given his skills and proclivities.

[Sanctaphrax]

That version gives you +4 to Deceit to impersonate them, too. A bonus that big on almost any activity is worth at least one Refresh. This one very likely wouldn't grant any such bonus. Well, it might, but only if you poured more power yet into it, as the shifts of effect would seem likely to replace any such roll.

Pretty sure the +4 is just supposed to be the situational bonus for looking exactly the same. I dunno how I'd feel about a ritual that duplicated appearance perfectly without that sort of bonus.

A 4 shift effect can also conjure a sword, which is possibly Weapon 3 and better than the Claws power, too. And Glamours is pretty much all easily duplicated with pretty low-level rituals...or easily surpassed by higher level ones (and can sub-in for Mimic Form sans +4 bonus as well, now that I think on it). Thaumaturgy being potentially better than particular powers when used properly is nothing new.

A ritual is better than a single use of Glamours. The point of Glamours is that you can use it freely.

Claws, incidentally, is really only useful for when you're not prepared for a fight or bad at Weapons. In both of those cases conjuring (or buying) a sword doesn't work.

EDIT: Another way to think of this is as using Thaumaturgy as a skill replacement for disguise, with shifts equalling out to the difficulty to spot the fakery. Forcing it on someone's harder than that, but that's really all that's meaningfully going on here. It's a bit more permanent than most such effects...but that's as much of a disadvantage as advantage in many ways.

Except that's not how you defined the effect. If that's the effect you want, use a different shift calculation. And pay for the duration, because permanency is definitely an advantage.

Or require taking out the people in question. That does explicitly work, too.

Actually, lemme quote the book:

The most complex spells outright kill people, leave them permanently insane, or transform them forever. There require enough shifts to bypass the resisting skill and all levels of consequence, including extreme. Victor Sells' killing spell needs 32 shifts to do the job...

I take this to mean that you actually have to bypass all levels of consequence. Not just the levels of consequence that the victim has available.

It could be interpreted differently, but I don't think it should be. These spells are supposed to be a big deal. They shouldn't be easy.

Hmmm. That'd probably work...but it's still a little shaky as an in-world justification...

What?

Harry goes on and on about how difficult and dangerous it is to make yourself stronger temporarily. Why would making yourself stronger permanently be easier?

[Deadmanwalking]

Pretty sure the +4 is just supposed to be the situational bonus for looking exactly the same. I dunno how I'd feel about a ritual that duplicated appearance perfectly without that sort of bonus.

Fate...doesn't so much have situational bonuses per se. It's the bonus provided by that method of looking the same. I'd interpret it as including, via the same sympathetic magic as assuming their likeness, perfect vocal duplication and probably body language as well, while other methods might lack those. Corpsetaker's certainly lacks the body language duplication, for example.

A ritual is better than a single use of Glamours. The point of Glamours is that you can use it freely.

True! You can use Mimic Form freely without a big ritual too. It requires a piece of them, sure, but it doesn't require additional time, effort, or rolls beyond that.

Claws, incidentally, is really only useful for when you're not prepared for a fight or bad at Weapons. In both of those cases conjuring (or buying) a sword doesn't work.

Brass knuckles would in the second case, and are almost as good (Weapon 1 vs. Weapon 2). The first case....well yeah, same thing as Glamour above. That's the usual downside of Thaumaturgy. That it requires prep.

Except that's not how you defined the effect. If that's the effect you want, use a different shift calculation. And pay for the duration, because permanency is definitely an advantage.

My point isn't necessarily that that's how you build the spell (which would indeed involve duration), it's a note that a switch like this is really no better than that spell...and thus shouldn't be that many more shifts.

Actually, lemme quote the book:

I take this to mean that you actually have to bypass all levels of consequence. Not just the levels of consequence that the victim has available.

It could be interpreted differently, but I don't think it should be. These spells are supposed to be a big deal. They shouldn't be easy.

That's a really iffy interpretation that I disagree with completely. Killing someone who's almost dead is easier than someone completely healthy, and there's no reason doing it with Thaumaturgy would change that.

But it almost doesn't matter for purposes of Corpsetaker, since what she does is via Thaumaturgy-as-Evocation, which can surely kill or transform in a more normal combat sense via multiple attacks or the whole point of using it as Evocation is lost and fails to make sense.

What?

Harry goes on and on about how difficult and dangerous it is to make yourself stronger temporarily. Why would making yourself stronger permanently be easier?

Not...per se. He talks about the difficulties of various methods, which isn't quite the same thing.

[Sanctaphrax]

Fate...doesn't so much have situational bonuses per se.

It has some. Read Hairpin Maestro, Cloak Of Shadows, and any Speed Power.

That's a really iffy interpretation that I disagree with completely. Killing someone who's almost dead is easier than someone completely healthy, and there's no reason doing it with Thaumaturgy would change that.

Killing someone whose reputation has been destroyed without their knowledge is also easier than killing someone with a solid reputation.

Consequences aren't just vitality. They're a form of plot armour.

When Harry sees the heart-explodey spell's results he is shocked and awed. Why would he have been, if killing spells can be cast for 3 shifts?

Also, your interpretation would also allow people to just not defend or take consequences against transformations. So all transformations can be cast at base complexity, no problem.

But it almost doesn't matter for purposes of Corpsetaker, since what she does is via Thaumaturgy-as-Evocation, which can surely kill or transform in a more normal combat sense via multiple attacks or the whole point of using it as Evocation is lost and fails to make sense.

Evothaum works the same way normal Thaumaturgy does. It doesn't get around normal limitations, except insofar as it is faster and less risky.

And yes, that makes it pretty pointless to use in combat time unless you can call up a load of shifts. That's not rare, for evothaum.

Corpsetaker's trick just isn't easily doable with the set of canon Powers. It's written the way it's written in OW for a reason.

[Deadmanwalking]

It has some. Read Hairpin Maestro, Cloak Of Shadows, and any Speed Power.

Sure, a few, but they're usually called out as such. That one isn't. Indeed, it's based on the quality of what you have to impersonate them with, making it very clearly a facet of the power, not a general rule.

Killing someone whose reputation has been destroyed without their knowledge is also easier than killing someone with a solid reputation.

Consequences aren't just vitality. They're a form of plot armour.

They are. But not when they're full. Not for anything. Why would Thaumaturgy be different? That's a serious question, BTW.

When Harry sees the heart-explodey spell's results he is shocked and awed. Why would he have been, if killing spells can be cast for 3 shifts?

Because even nameless people have all their Consequences to resist Thaumaturgy? That's always been my interpretation anyway, and it makes something in the 25-30 shift range absolutely necessary to be assured of killing someone.

Or, to look at it another way: Your heart exploding like that will kill anyonemeaning it needs to have enough shifts to do that, regardless of how many were actually necessary in this case. If it'd been something someone tough or lucky could survive (like an inflicted heart attack) Harry would've been less impressed even with the same victims dead, and it might've been a lower shift effect.

Also, your interpretation would also allow people to just not defend or take consequences against transformations. So all transformations can be cast at base complexity, no problem.

Only willing ones. That's hardly all.

Evothaum works the same way normal Thaumaturgy does. It doesn't get around normal limitations, except insofar as it is faster and less risky.

So, uh, how does Lea turn people into hounds, then, by your interpretation? I'm curious.

And yes, that makes it pretty pointless to use in combat time unless you can call up a load of shifts. That's not rare, for evothaum.

Corpsetaker's trick just isn't easily doable with the set of canon Powers. It's written the way it's written in OW for a reason.

I disagree rather completely. As stated above.

[narphoenix]

Completely ignoring the debate here: do you think that you could stat up Lea? I know the book says unstattable, but most interpretations put our favorite psycho faerie death lady at just above Winter Lady level. Do you think she's stattable?

[Sanctaphrax]

Sure, a few, but they're usually called out as such.

Actually, you often have to infer their existence from the existence of things that negate them.

They are. But not when they're full. Not for anything. Why would Thaumaturgy be different? That's a serious question, BTW.

Because transforming someone with Thaumaturgy isn't actually an attack, it just simulates attack mechanics for the purpose of determining how complex an effect is.

Because even nameless people have all their Consequences to resist Thaumaturgy?

What? Why would you assume that?

Or, to look at it another way: Your heart exploding like that will kill anyonemeaning it needs to have enough shifts to do that, regardless of how many were actually necessary in this case. If it'd been something someone tough or lucky could survive (like an inflicted heart attack) Harry would've been less impressed even with the same victims dead, and it might've been a lower shift effect.

Hang on a minute, weren't you just proposing all take-out-based effects be equally hard to cast?

Only willing ones. That's hardly all.

Sorry, misspoke there. The general point stands.

So, uh, how does Lea turn people into hounds, then, by your interpretation? I'm curious.

She can cast with enough shifts. Or she has some kind of custom Power.

[Deadmanwalking]

Completely ignoring the debate here: do you think that you could stat up Lea? I know the book says unstattable, but most interpretations put our favorite psycho faerie death lady at just above Winter Lady level. Do you think she's stattable?

No. She is second only to Mab herself in power. She's beyond stats. Individual things she does can be statted (like the dog thing), but as a whole? Not really, no. She's probably on par with the Senior Council in magic and has excessive amounts of other powers for being a Faerie. When you get to the -60 Refresh level and stats all at Great at a minimum, you're pretty much beyond stats.

[Deadmanwalking]

Actually, you often have to infer their existence from the existence of things that negate them.

I suppose, but this isn't one of those.

Because transforming someone with Thaumaturgy isn't actually an attack, it just simulates attack mechanics for the purpose of determining how complex an effect is.

I disagree. It can kill or inflict Consequences, that makes it an attack. What other criteria are there for something being an attack?

What? Why would you assume that?

Just always have. Why would you assume the spell rules break all the other game rules in this area?

And my second explanation makes just as much sense. As does the meta explanation that he didn't know how many Consequences those people had and just assumed the worst, an assumption confirmed by his later research.

Hang on a minute, weren't you just proposing all take-out-based effects be equally hard to cast?

Uh...no, not really. You seem to be the one doing that (saying you always need 32 shifts regardless of circumstances). Taking someone out is enormously variable based on their current condition, willingness, and how good their defenses are. Something that can take anyone out no matter how good all that stuff is? Like that spell? Scary.

Sorry, misspoke there. The general point stands.

Not really. Willingness really should matter in how easy it is to perform magic on someone.

She can cast with enough shifts. Or she has some kind of custom Power.

Well, I can't argue with those, I guess. Still, this seems the kind of thing other Fae of lesser power can likely do with Seelie Magic alone (just for example).

[vultur]

No. She is second only to Mab herself in power. She's beyond stats. Individual things she does can be statted (like the dog thing), but as a whole? Not really, no. She's probably on par with the Senior Council in magic and has excessive amounts of other powers for being a Faerie. When you get to the -60 Refresh level and stats all at Great at a minimum, you're pretty much beyond stats.

Why do you think her skills are all Great+? I don't see why she should have impressive Endurance, Might, or Fists for example, and Harry tricks her in GP (the ghost dust thing) so even her social skills probably aren't universally high.

Killing two Lords of Outer Night was really impressive, but she might have taken a ton of sponsor debt on that one... really, I think a lot of that "indulge yourself" stuff in Changes might have been sponsor debt based.