Author Topic: Harry's Stats plus Assorted Other Stat Revisions (Small Favor through Cold Days)  (Read 207984 times)

Offline Sanctaphrax

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In general, I'm not against Self-Sponsored Magic or something like it (Kemmlerian Necromancy is basically this)...but I think adding it to the Senior council is premature. We haven't ever seen them use it, and (based on some stuff Jim Butcher said) I'm not at all sure most of them don't have some sort of actual sponsored magic...so I'm withholding judgement until we know.

You already gave the Gatekeeper most of Superior Worldwalking. And Listens-To-Wind has used biomancy-as-evocation on screen. And Luccio's Warden Sword-making clearly involves something like this, mechanically speaking.

So at least some of the Senior Council clearly has these abilities or something similar. Maybe also real Sponsored Magic, they're not incompatible.

On the PS: Keep reading. I note changes without necessarily removing previous notes. It's at the bottom why I switched her element.

I see. My apologies. Is she really a diviner?

On the PPS: I don't necessarily agree, at least on Initiative. And his defensive item's pretty good...though I suppose it could be better. Alright, upgraded item will occur momentarily.

EDIT: And there, vastly beefed up defensive item. which, IMO, make initiative unnecessary to some degree.

A big item does help with the initiative thing. But going first is still extremely powerful when wizards fight each other.

Offline Deadmanwalking

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You already gave the Gatekeeper most of Superior Worldwalking. And Listens-To-Wind has used biomancy-as-evocation on screen. And Luccio's Warden Sword-making clearly involves something like this, mechanically speaking.

Luccio's sword-making follows all the standard item creation rules as far as I can see (especially my revised version of her stats and the swords), and Listens-to-Wind has shown the ability to shapeshift during combat...which is a bit different from Evocation-speed Biomancy in general. And I already gave him a power for that. Ditto the Gatekeeper and Worldwalking.

So at least some of the Senior Council clearly has these abilities or something similar. Maybe also real Sponsored Magic, they're not incompatible.

True...I'm just leery of giving them too much stuff that might be completely wrong in kind as well as details and magnitude. Call it an aesthetic preference.

I see. My apologies. Is she really a diviner?

No problem. And apparently, Jim says so. So I believe him. Also, it makes a whole bunch of sense if you read her introductory scene in Summer Knight.

A big item does help with the initiative thing. But going first is still extremely powerful when wizards fight each other.

True, but that assumes he's fighting fair. Man's an assassin after all...
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 09:05:13 AM by Deadmanwalking »

Offline narphoenix

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True, but that assumes he's fighting fair. Man's an assassin after all...

Plus, he's in the Dresden verse. Fighting fair = being dead.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Luccio's sword-making follows all the standard item creation rules as far as I can see (especially my revised version of her stats and the swords), and Listens-to-Wind has shown the ability to shapeshift during combat...which is a bit different from Evocation-speed Biomancy in general. And I already gave him a power for that. Ditto the Gatekeeper and Worldwalking.

The Warden Sword has two Powers, instead of one. Not normally possible.

Also, if Luccio does not have some kind of special ability than anybody could make a Warden sword. Which is not so.

Also it lets you use somebody else's Lore + strength specializations, which may or may not be possible normally. But for some reason it doesn't give you access to Luccio's frequency specializations. Unless the idea is that Luccio has Lore 6 and no specializations are carried over when the sword is given out? Hard to say.

Superior Worldwalking was created specifically because Worldwalker is not generally suitable for spellcasters (it says so in Your Story).

And if you can do extremely complex and powerful biomancy fast enough to have True Shapeshifting, I bet you can do minor biomancy even faster.

True...I'm just leery of giving them too much stuff that might be completely wrong in kind as well as details and magnitude. Call it an aesthetic preference.

Fair enough. But if Superior Worldwalking is wrong for Rashid then his writeup is already in error.

And Luccio and LtW have unusual abilities that demand some sort of representation.

True, but that assumes he's fighting fair. Man's an assassin after all...

And a brawler. He ought to be able to kill you any which way.

Offline Deadmanwalking

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The Warden Sword has two Powers, instead of one. Not normally possible.

Well, sorta true. IMO, any item can be multiple 'items' built into a single physical housing (as long as the item's size isn't exceeded by the total number of item slots...I'm all for encouraging PCs to put more eggs in one basket)...but the normal version does indeed have that either/or thing. My version of Luccio, however can make a Warden's Sword at two Item Slots with each of those two abilities entirely separate and usable at Strength 6  3/session...bringing it back in line with the standard rules on items. At least as I'd interpret them.

Also, if Luccio does not have some kind of special ability than anybody could make a Warden sword. Which is not so.

She's a really good Crafter. End explanation of specific ability.

Also it lets you use somebody else's Lore + strength specializations, which may or may not be possible normally. But for some reason it doesn't give you access to Luccio's frequency specializations. Unless the idea is that Luccio has Lore 6 and no specializations are carried over when the sword is given out? Hard to say.

I strongly disagree that that's impossible. Anyone can make a magic item only usable by themselves at no cost break, or items usable to anyoneat only a slight reduction in effectiveness. Luccio makes items usable by one specific person who happens not to be her (but who must still adopt the item to make use of it). I see no reason why that's not a trick anyone can do given they can do the other two...most Wizards simply don't bother (it uses up some Item slots of yours for a while and takes time and effort).

Superior Worldwalking was created specifically because Worldwalker is not generally suitable for spellcasters (it says so in Your Story).

That's not quite what it says. It says spellcasters don't usually need this ability...but spellcasters don't usually need, say, Glamour either (they can Veil without it, after all). Doesn't mean they can't take it, or have uses for it. And all of its abilities (especially the +2 on Lore and Survival) seem spot on for Rashid (and Harry once he's got the gem from his mother). I'm much more comfortable giving them this than something homebrewed (and not notably more useful).

And if you can do extremely complex and powerful biomancy fast enough to have True Shapeshifting, I bet you can do minor biomancy even faster.

An interesting speculation, but not one necessarily borne out. Changing yourself is a lot easier and more intuitive than changing others (as people like the Alphas demonstrate)...meaning that self-shifting (which we know he does quick) does not necessarily equate to ability to pull off tricks effecting others with the same speed.

Fair enough. But if Superior Worldwalking is wrong for Rashid then his writeup is already in error.

Not necessarily. He has an existing power that there's no reason he can't have. Superior Worldwalking is another theoretical way to do the same thing...but I prefer to stick to the book when it's a choice between two appropriate things, one from the book and one not.

And Luccio and LtW have unusual abilities that demand some sort of representation.

I feel that my listed stats cover what we've seen of both of their capabilities.

And a brawler. He ought to be able to kill you any which way.

I feel that 12 shift evocations plus whatever the Blackstaff does cover this.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Well, sorta true. IMO, any item can be multiple 'items' built into a single physical housing (as long as the item's size isn't exceeded by the total number of item slots...I'm all for encouraging PCs to put more eggs in one basket)...but the normal version does indeed have that either/or thing. My version of Luccio, however can make a Warden's Sword at two Item Slots with each of those two abilities entirely separate and usable at Strength 6  3/session...bringing it back in line with the standard rules on items. At least as I'd interpret them.

The standard rules say you get 3 uses for both abilities together. Not 3 for each.

She's a really good Crafter. End explanation of specific ability.

Strength 6 Frequency 3 is doable at Feet In The Water. So why is Luccio the only Crafter who can make that specific item?

I strongly disagree that that's impossible. Anyone can make a magic item only usable by themselves at no cost break, or items usable to anyoneat only a slight reduction in effectiveness. Luccio makes items usable by one specific person who happens not to be her (but who must still adopt the item to make use of it). I see no reason why that's not a trick anyone can do given they can do the other two...most Wizards simply don't bother (it uses up some Item slots of yours for a while and takes time and effort).

I said it may or may not be possible. The rules don't really make it clear how item lending is meant to work.

There are serious balance issues with lending items once somebody makes a Strength 10 Crafter, though.

That's not quite what it says. It says spellcasters don't usually need this ability...but spellcasters don't usually need, say, Glamour either (they can Veil without it, after all). Doesn't mean they can't take it, or have uses for it. And all of its abilities (especially the +2 on Lore and Survival) seem spot on for Rashid (and Harry once he's got the gem from his mother). I'm much more comfortable giving them this than something homebrewed (and not notably more useful).

...

Not necessarily. He has an existing power that there's no reason he can't have. Superior Worldwalking is another theoretical way to do the same thing...but I prefer to stick to the book when it's a choice between two appropriate things, one from the book and one not.

It offends my aesthetic sense to see somebody take a Power when they have no actual use for it's primary effect, especially when the Power was specifically not designed for them.

I considered putting that +2 bonus in Superior Worldwalking, maybe I still should.

An interesting speculation, but not one necessarily borne out. Changing yourself is a lot easier and more intuitive than changing others (as people like the Alphas demonstrate)...meaning that self-shifting (which we know he does quick) does not necessarily equate to ability to pull off tricks effecting others with the same speed.

The Alphas trained for a long-ass time. They don't demonstrate much here.


I feel that 12 shift evocations plus whatever the Blackstaff does cover this.

They don't. Doesn't matter how hard your punches are if the fight ends before you can throw one.

As long he's got his item he can probably tough out an initial attack, unless his opponent is another powerful wizard in which case he could get splattered before acting once.

And of course foes with Speed can just run. A 7 zone sprint will get you out of sight range, barring unusual circumstances.

Offline Deadmanwalking

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The standard rules say you get 3 uses for both abilities together. Not 3 for each.

True! Which is why I note my alternate version of the Swords under Luccio's stats.

Strength 6 Frequency 3 is doable at Feet In The Water. So why is Luccio the only Crafter who can make that specific item?

Because, as mentioned in the books, each Wizard is unique and so is their magic. That kind of crafting is decently rare, and everyone who does it does it a different way from Luccio, so while they might make items of equivalent power, they aren't actually the same thing.

I said it may or may not be possible. The rules don't really make it clear how item lending is meant to work.

True, I'm just stating my opinion on the matter (ie: that anyone can do it). If that isn't the case in someone's game, they should obviously add to Luccio some ability to let her do so.

There are serious balance issues with lending items once somebody makes a Strength 10 Crafter, though.

Eh. Only other spellcasters can borrow them effectively. And the GM can make it bordering on arbitrarily hard to make ones for other people.

It offends my aesthetic sense to see somebody take a Power when they have no actual use for it's primary effect, especially when the Power was specifically not designed for them.

The ability to do one portal per scene sans Thaumaturgy can be a lifesaver if you need to get out of someplace quickly. And I'm legitimately sorry if our aesthetic sensibilities differ on this one.

I considered putting that +2 bonus in Superior Worldwalking, maybe I still should.

Very possibly, it looks a little weak all things considered.

The Alphas trained for a long-ass time. They don't demonstrate much here.

I'm just noting that the Alphas have no ability to effect others with magic at all, so combat shapeshifting doesn't necessarily imply other combat-speed Biomancy.

They don't. Doesn't matter how hard your punches are if the fight ends before you can throw one.

True...but 'brawler' and 'automatic first on initiative' don't necessarily have a lot in common.

As long he's got his item he can probably tough out an initial attack, unless his opponent is another powerful wizard in which case he could get splattered before acting once.

Not really, with two uses he's got a 12 shift Block and Armor 6. Assuming Eldest Brother Gruff is sucker punching him with a 14 shift effect that's a 10 stress physical hit. Which he'll take a Consequence or two from, but definitely survive. And...there's really nobody more hardcore than that to sucker punch him.

And of course foes with Speed can just run. A 7 zone sprint will get you out of sight range, barring unusual circumstances.

True. But attacking a specialist in killing people with Thaumaturgy and running is this little thing called suicide.

Offline Deadmanwalking

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And, due to looking up Eldest Brother Gruff for the previous post, I've adjusted him a bit. Basically, I added a defensive item. Seemed like he needed one.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Because, as mentioned in the books, each Wizard is unique and so is their magic. That kind of crafting is decently rare, and everyone who does it does it a different way from Luccio, so while they might make items of equivalent power, they aren't actually the same thing.

So you're saying that Harry could make something exactly like a Warden Sword mechanically (with less strength), but it wouldn't be called a Warden Sword.

True...but 'brawler' and 'automatic first on initiative' don't necessarily have a lot in common.

Sure they do.

Have you ever been in a fight? Being quick is a huge deal.

Not really, with two uses he's got a 12 shift Block and Armor 6. Assuming Eldest Brother Gruff is sucker punching him with a 14 shift effect that's a 10 stress physical hit. Which he'll take a Consequence or two from, but definitely survive. And...there's really nobody more hardcore than that to sucker punch him.

One of my PCs hits harder than that.

And EBG would definitely not throw out a base-power attack against Eb. He'll take consequences and spend debt/FP to hit as hard as he can. Eb can't boost his item with FP.

True. But attacking a specialist in killing people with Thaumaturgy and running is this little thing called suicide.

Naw, it's pretty survivable if you don't leave any blood, etc, behind and he doesn't know where you live.

Offline Deadmanwalking

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So you're saying that Harry could make something exactly like a Warden Sword mechanically (with less strength), but it wouldn't be called a Warden Sword.

It wouldn't work on the same magical principles, but sure. I mean, in game terms, his Force Rings are already almost halfway there.

Sure they do.

Have you ever been in a fight? Being quick is a huge deal.

True, but it's far from the whole of the fight. And 'brawler' at least to me, says things like 'guy can hit like a Mack truck, and take a hit' more than it says 'quick on the draw'.

One of my PCs hits harder than that.

You have powerful PCs then.

And EBG would definitely not throw out a base-power attack against Eb. He'll take consequences and spend debt/FP to hit as hard as he can. Eb can't boost his item with FP.

Y'know, you've talked me into it (or talked me into re-reading the scene with him and Kincaid in Blood Rites, which helped talk me into it, anyway). Initiative will be enhanced shortly.

Naw, it's pretty survivable if you don't leave any blood, etc, behind and he doesn't know where you live.

11 shift tracking spells done casually make that second part a very temporary state of affairs indeed.

EDIT: And there, Ebenezar's Initiative is now stratospheric (if still less than, say, Kincaid's).
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 10:14:36 AM by Deadmanwalking »

Offline DFJunkie

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True, but it's far from the whole of the fight. And 'brawler' at least to me, says things like 'guy can hit like a Mack truck, and take a hit' more than it says 'quick on the draw'.

To me it says "prioritizing strength and toughness over finesse and technique."  Speed isn't necessarily on the table.

I also think that Eb's reputation as a magical brawler might be intentionally overstated.  He seems to go faaaar out of his way to look the part of the ignorant hillbilly, yet when we see him actually throw power around in Changes it's done with incredible efficiency (no SFX when he's killing those 200 or so mercenaries for instance).  I'd bet he prioritizes power over control, but not by much.
90% of what I say is hyperbole intended for humorous effect.  Don't take me seriously. I don't.

Offline Jebm

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Can you do a write-up for Cat Sith and the Red Cap?

Offline Deadmanwalking

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We don't really see enough of the Redcap, IMO. He's a decent combatant in several areas and that's all we really know. Maybe we'll find out more in the future. Cat Sith seems doable though, if you like. He's a scary little bastard.

Offline Jebm

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that's fine by me. I've been re-reading his fight scenes and was curious on your opinion of whether he merits supernatural or merely inhuman strength.

Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: Harry's Stats as of Small Favor/Turn Coat plus Assorted Other Stat Revisions
« Reply #419 on: December 21, 2012, 09:14:40 PM »
Name: Cat Sith

Aspects:
High Concept: First Of The Malks
Trouble: Bound To Mab's Service
Other:
Icy Courtesy
Hyperviolent And Easily Bored
Ancient Predator
Scary Kitty

Skills:

Fantastic: Intimidation, Stealth,
Superb: Athletics, Deceit, Fists,
Great: Alertness, Lore, Might,
Good: Conviction, Discipline, Endurance, Presence,
Fair: Empathy, Rapport, Scholarship, Survival

All other skills default to average.

Stunts:

Takes One to Know One (Deceit) (-1)

Powers:

Cloak of Shadows [-1]
Echoes of the Beast (Cat) [-1]
Claws [-1]
Glamours [-2]
Supernatural Strength [–4]
Supernatural Speed [–4]
Inhuman Toughness [-2]
Inhuman Recovery [–2]
The Catch [+3] is Cold Iron and the like.
Swift Transition [-2]
Worldwalker [-2]

Total: -19 Refresh

Stress:

Mental: OOOO
Physical: OOOO(OO)
Social: OOOO
Armor: 1.

And there he is. He might be tougher than this, I guess, or heal faster. Hard to tell. He's certainly got the whole Nevernever/real world transition thing down cold. No evidence of Unseelie Magic or Greater Glamours and they don't seem his style. And the way he casually overpowers other Sidhe suggests the Supernatural physical stuff.