Dependencies and involuntary change refresh discounts

[Dan from Chicago]

Heyo,

FTR, this is entirely based on incomplete information, so please be kind

So, I've had a lycanthrope character in my head for a while now(but not it's rage spirit, thankfully , but looking at the powers download, it seems as though the character type may come at a significant disadvantage. The refresh for the mandatory powers: echoes of the beat, pack instincts, inhuman strength, speed and recovery, come to a refresh of -8. There is no mundane form in the powers download, but there is a 'regular joe' which I'm assuming covers the 5 out of 28 days power availability of the inhuman stats. That appears to come with a refresh discount of +1. Does the discount apply to each power? If so, the refresh cost of a lycanthrope, based on the aforementioned incomplete information, would be -5. If it only applies once then the lycanthrope would have a refresh of -7. A Changeling could pick all those powers for -8, and have them 'on' all the time, whereas a lycanthrope has them available less than 1/5 of the time.

Anyways, this is all Theorymachine, and I'm sure the book explains it well, but if somebody in the know wanted to fill in more details, I would be grateful.

Thanks,
Dan 

[iago]

The rebate's one time only, but a lycanthrope does not have control over when he changes, so he'd get the +2 version, not the +1 version.

[Deadmanwalking]

So -6 Refresh Cost, total. With -2 worth of powers on all the time, and another -6 worth only during the full moon? A bit pricy for a PC, but then you don't have to play one...

Also, if you skip the Inuman Speed, they're only -4, and IMO a bit more playable.

[iago]

So -6 Refresh Cost, total. With -2 worth of powers on all the time, and another -6 worth only during the full moon? A bit pricy for a PC, but then you don't have to play one...

Also, if you skip the Inuman Speed, they're only -4, and IMO a bit more playable.

Without taking the time out to go and reference all the pieces parts myself, it sounds like you're mostly on point.

[Dan from Chicago]

Okay ... is the idea to make the Lycanthrope a more difficult character to play? I'm not grousing here, just trying to understand the rationale. As I understand it, Fate points are meant to be a proxy for the relative amount of free will a given character has, and the more power(refresh reducing mundane stunts or refresh reducing supernatural powers) a character starts with, the less free will he or she starts with. While not trying to reduce the game or character creation to a mathematical formula, the Lycanthrope seems to pay a pretty heavy price in free will, 60% of the starting stat, whereas somebody paying 80% gets a lot more flexibility in power availability: 100% available vs less than 20% available for 75% of the power.

As for other downsides, I get that a changeling, for example, has other costs to consider(silver allergy, supernatural contract enforcement, etc), but so does the Lycanthrope. After all, if his boss aggravates him at work, he might have to start paying fate points not to bash his skull in!

[iago]

Okay ... is the idea to make the Lycanthrope a more difficult character to play? I'm not grousing here, just trying to understand the rationale.

Well, in short, the rationale is a basic one. There were many powers in the game, we had to balance them all against one another first, and then we had to limit how complex we got with our "sell back" strategies on stuff that makes sense to get any "sell back" on at all.  If you don't like how that means the lycanthrope has to be implemented in the system -- don't play a lycanthrope.

The math should never -- not EVER -- amount up to "well, I can only use these 20% of the time, so I should only have to pay 20% of the cost".  Because time in a game does not flow like that.  Some GMs might enforce a 20% of the time thing. Some GMs might stick you in an entire story arc set during a full moon.  Some GMs might stick you in an entire story arc where it's never available. 

So you have to break yourself of the assumptions that insist you try to tie frequency into the point-cost.  The way time flows in a story means that that logic won't ever apply consistently.

Which is why you should also keep in mind that there are inobviousnesses at play here beyond the straight up point costs of things.  A lycanthrope who's often stuck in situations where his powers WOULD be useful if only he had access to them is going to be a compel-generating MACHINE.  That's getting nailed in the High Concept aspect real regularly -- which means that during times when your powers aren't available to you, you're going to be operating at an effectively higher refresh because there'll be plenty of chances for the GM to pay you some extra fate points as a nod towards the deprivation.

So when it comes down to it, any cost break at all is something of an extra gift on top of what you'll already be getting for the compelled downsides of your high concept aspect (and your other ones too).  The powers people buy are all about giving them peak effectiveness capability.  But you don't always get to act at peak effectiveness.  You're a wizard and your dad has a pacemaker and a demon just came through the window.  Cast a spell and risk stopping your dad's heart?  Should your powers cost less on your sheet because sometimes you'll be hanging out with your dad?  No.  But the *choice* is there -- you *could* cast the spell.  What the sell-back on the sheet normally means is that sometimes circumstances can strike when that choice isn't available at all. So you get a little bit of cost break for that. But it's not really where the jazz lives in the system.

[Dan from Chicago]

Thanks for the in-depth reply. I don't have much experience actually playing any FATE based games, so this helps a bunch.