Poll

Do you think using characters that say swear words looks as bad for the writer who chose to use it, as much as the character?

yes
1 (5.3%)
no
5 (26.3%)
Yes, but only if the word is F**k
1 (5.3%)
Yes, but only if it's completely uncharacteristic of the character.
8 (42.1%)
No, but only if it's within character for the character.
4 (21.1%)

Total Members Voted: 19

Author Topic: On Character Swearing  (Read 8625 times)

Offline Qualapec

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On Character Swearing
« on: January 19, 2007, 05:46:32 AM »
Well, this started because I had a character that said F**k in one of my stories and I got a ration of crap from my beta reader, who said that it's just as bad for the writer to use swear words of that magnitude as it is for the character. Now, it was completely within character for the character to say that (he'd already used every other swear word in the american language, as well as variations of the "f-word" such as "freakin" and "friggen"). Now the readers view of the character might drop a little, but I really don't think it reflects that epically on the writer that decides to have that character use it.

So, what do the rest of you think?

~She-Wolf

Offline Chaos985

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Re: On Character Swearing
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2007, 06:49:37 AM »
it can. There are times where people write characters that do nothing but swear, and it just dosent work.  Then agin, most people faced with a quick violent death might just let a few words escape their lips.  I think it has to be done tastefully.

Offline pathele

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Re: On Character Swearing
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2007, 03:40:14 PM »
I agree, that if it used for effect, it works.  IIRC, Murphy has used f**k in one or two of the earlier books.
It has to be used in the right context and the right character.  If you have an Andrew Dice Clay character, it would probably get old really quickly.

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Offline blgarver

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Re: On Character Swearing
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2007, 05:04:38 PM »
If swear words are used to excess, it can seem like the writer isn't skilled enough to get the point across without them.  However, the writer also has a responsibility to keep the character consistent and believable. 

I don't think it's any different in books that it is in real life.  I know people who use curse words in every sentence.  And it makes them sound stupid.  And I get really annoyed when they talk to me.  However, whenever I lose my temper, the F word replaces my entire vocabulary. 

In normal situations I don't use an overabundance of curse words, but I do swear here and there.  Like "Oh sh*t, did you see that?" 

Now, if I were a 'good boy' I wouldn't swear at all, and even when I lost my temper it'd be inconsistent for me to curse.  Refer to Ned Flanders in the Simpsons.  I've never heard him say anything worse than Hell or Damn, and the Damn was on an episode when he went off his rocker.

But as far as reflecting on the writer...everything a writer writes reflects a little bit.  Stay within the character, but keep it trimmed and effective, and you should be fine.  I mean, do we think that Thomas Harris is a cannibal?
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: On Character Swearing
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2007, 05:12:43 PM »
If swear words are used to excess, it can seem like the writer isn't skilled enough to get the point across without them.  However, the writer also has a responsibility to keep the character consistent and believable. 

I have a major problem with readers default assuming "the writer is not skilled enough to get the point across without them" rather than "the writer is portraying a character who is not very verbally original".

It depends on the character background, and the background culture's attitude to swearing.  Prissier language would actively misrepresent a setting like Reservoir Dogs or The Commitments or Trainspotting, and would to my mind therefore be wrong in writing about it.

It can also depend on your genre; "Damn you to hell" may offend people less than the f-word in a contemporary realistic USAn setting [ it will be a great deal more offensive in mid-1990s Germany, from my experience. ], but it should have a lot more impact if it comes from a heavyweight exorcist getting really cross in an urban fantasy setting where she might well be capable of causing it to be literally true.

Personally, I've had co-workers note about me that when I was using elaborate invective, it was worth trying to calm me down, but when I said "Oh dear" in a particular tone of voice they cleared the lab.  SFAIK, ten years later that lab was still using my voice saying "oh, dear" as an error message on several of their computers.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2007, 09:36:31 PM by neurovore »
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Offline Josh

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Re: On Character Swearing
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2007, 07:56:32 PM »
Personally I try to avoid cursing and swearing, and not just because it might offend someone. Sure, swearing and an acidic curse sizzling in the ink can be a way to show someone's emotions (usually anger, fear, etc) but I enjoy making a game out of it for myself to see what other ways I can either have them show that same emotion through actions, or I try to twist the words around so they might stick with a reader more. Especially in science fiction and fantasy, there are plenty of opportunities to come up with an original curse (Hell's Bells, anyone?) that can even become a trademark phrase, or fits with the culture you've developed. (Frack?) Also, I sometimes enjoy cutting off a character as they're in the middle of spouting a curse. This can add a little humor, if the timing is right, and it can possibly draw the reader in a little more, because they interact with what the character was going to say, supply the rest in their own minds, chuckle a little, and then feel a bit clever for figuring it out...maybe. Not sure if that technique really works, but it's still fun to play with.


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Offline HornedToad

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Re: On Character Swearing
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2007, 09:55:59 PM »
Depends on the character, scene and how bad of an event it is that causes the character to cuss.

I'm not fully against it, but I do prefer my characters to restrain from swearing except for very rare exceptions.  Excessive swearing does turn me off and mean I may not finish a book or buy a sequel.

Offline trboturtle

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Re: On Character Swearing
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2007, 06:14:43 PM »
I rearly use swear words, but I will write something like, "He cursed loudly," or "
Have you ever heard a cat curse in seven language, two of which aren't spoken outside of church or college?"

Use of curse words need to be very limited, IMO.

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Offline Abstruse

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Re: On Character Swearing
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2007, 03:18:33 PM »
My main characters tend to be males aged between 16 and 28 and I almost exclusively write in a contemporary setting.  My characters are also usually very passionate people who wear their hearts on their sleeves.  One of my characters is also Irish.  Therefore, my characters curse.  Sometimes, an inordinate amount.  Why?  Because 20-something males curse.  A lot.  I actually tone it down from my normal speech patterns.  Do I have them f-bombing every page?  No.  That's not how people talk.  People don't swear indiscriminately.  They build up filters based on the social situations.  At work, instead of yelling out an s-bomb when I stub my toe at work or drop something,  I yell out "Crap!"  But if I'm home alone and I drop something, I will spew forth a string of curses which would make a sailor blush.

In my opinion, I feel that you should write for your audience and write for your characters.  Would Michael swear?  Probably not.  Would Harry?  Probably.  Would one of Marcone's low-level thugs?  Probably every third word.  The Dresden Files isn't meant for children.  Dancing around cursing by characters would feel awkward in the prose.  If you're writing something for young adults or children, then of course you should cut out the cursing. 

Here's the big thing, though...many people are offended by certain words.  For some people, it's the f-word.  For most women, it's the c-word.  However, you have to balance in your mind alienating some of your audience by using these words and how much the prose suffers from losing them.

In my opinion, the worst thing you can do break the fourth wall by using fake curse words unless it's something your character would do.  If you watch the TV show Scrubs, it's part of the character of Elliot that she doesn't swear and says words like "frick!" when she would normally curse.  However, if you use "friggin'",  "freakin'", "crap", "heck", etc. too much without a good reason, it will seriously damage the flow of the narrative because it makes me think about the author's motivation.  This is really bad in sci-fi and fantasy because authors in these genres have a bad habit of making up curse words.  I love Battlestar Galactica, but I'm SO sick of "frak".  Shadowrun finally ditched "drek" and "frag".  Red Dwarf is at least creative about replacing curses, but "smeg" became comedic after a while.

Just like the choice of how graphic your violence should be and how much detail you should use in describing sex, you have to think about your audience and the style you're going for.  The prose should come first above anything else.  Don't censor yourself at the expense of your story and your style.

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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: On Character Swearing
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2007, 05:50:12 PM »
  One of my characters is also Irish.  Therefore, my characters curse.  Sometimes, an inordinate amount.  Why?  Because 20-something males curse.  A lot.  I actually tone it down from my normal speech patterns.  Do I have them f-bombing every page?  No.  That's not how people talk.  People don't swear indiscriminately.  They build up filters based on the social situations.

Speaking as someone born in Ireland who lived the first twenty years of my life there, fewer than one f-word per two sentences is wrong for a Northside Dubliner with other Northside Dubliners, whether at work, in the pub with peers, or asking your parents to stop calling you so early in the morning. Sometimes the filter based on the social situation is in favour of not looking weird by swearing too little.

In my opinion, the worst thing you can do break the fourth wall by using fake curse words unless it's something your character would do.

I can tell when I have been spending too much time writing in one particular setting of mine because I find my default expression for real-life situations of mild-to-moderate anger or frustration becomes "Gods of Earth !"
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Offline Abstruse

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Re: On Character Swearing
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2007, 05:55:31 PM »
My Irish character was born in the US, moved to Ireland as a young child (3-4), was raised there, then moved back to America and has been here for a few years.  This gives me liberty of not having to get the accent perfectly (one of those "the accent gets thicker when he's pissed (either meaning)" sort of deals), but also lets me play around with the absolutely FABULOUSLY creative way the Irish swear!  You think French is fun to swear in?  Listen to an Irishman sometime.  It's like some kind of poetry.

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Offline Amber

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Re: On Character Swearing
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2007, 05:57:59 PM »
Why should swearing reflect badly upon anyone?  It's just remnants of an old prejudice, with little basis in anything.  The words have only the power you give them.  I mean, really, think about it.  Why is "ass" worse than "butt?"  (And the answer isn't just "because it is.")
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Offline Abstruse

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Re: On Character Swearing
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2007, 06:20:30 PM »
Ass and butt are worse than rear or derrier because the Anglo Saxons were conquored by the Normans.  The Normans were French and therefore took over the aristocracy.  Therefore, the gutteral Anglo-Saxon words (butt, ass, shit, fuck, etc) because the "low" or "crass" way of saying things, while the romance French way (derrier, deficate, intercourse, etc) because the "proper" way.  This has also made words change meaning.  "Stool" (Germanic), for example, originally had the same meaning as "chair" (Romance).  However, the common Anglo-Saxons were the ones who owned small, short bits of wood with no back and called them stools, while the rich aristocrats owned plus seats with backs and arms and called them chairs.

Thus endith the English lesson.

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Offline Amber

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Re: On Character Swearing
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2007, 06:40:10 PM »
Ass and butt are worse than rear or derrier because the Anglo Saxons were conquored by the Normans.  The Normans were French and therefore took over the aristocracy.  Therefore, the gutteral Anglo-Saxon words (butt, ass, shit, fuck, etc) because the "low" or "crass" way of saying things, while the romance French way (derrier, deficate, intercourse, etc) because the "proper" way.  This has also made words change meaning.  "Stool" (Germanic), for example, originally had the same meaning as "chair" (Romance).  However, the common Anglo-Saxons were the ones who owned small, short bits of wood with no back and called them stools, while the rich aristocrats owned plus seats with backs and arms and called them chairs.

Thus endith the English lesson.

The Abstruse One
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*G* That's exactly what I was going for! :D

The not as funny part of my point was that if the *intent* of the phrase is the same, don't dumb it down just for those who are offended by certain words.  In other words, if your character shouts "fudgesicle!" (as someone I know does), I know he means "Fuck!"   You know he means "Fuck!"  So why change it?  (Another favorite of mine "Darn it all to heck.")
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Offline Abstruse

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Re: On Character Swearing
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2007, 08:42:37 PM »
What was the quote?

"Holy shit!  Hellhounds!"
"Harry," Michael said.
"Sorry.  Holy shit!  Heckhounds!"

Something like that...

The Abstruse One
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