Game Balance and the Laws

[SoulCatcher78]

Ok, just to jump into the middle of this and muddy things a bit more.  How many Stress positions (sounds like there should be a pg13 rating attached) do you have?  Looking at the Harry Dresden character sheet he has 4 open stress circle thingies in both Physical (Endurance) and Mental (Conviction) but only 3 in Social (Presence).  

His skills in these are Conviction (5), Endurance (4), and Presence (1).  

Can you explain (preferably in little words) how the skills match up to the Stress Tracks?

[traeki]

Ok, just to jump into the middle of this and muddy things a bit more.  How many Stress positions (sounds like there should be a pg13 rating attached) do you have?  Looking at the Harry Dresden character sheet he has 4 open stress circle thingies in both Physical (Endurance) and Mental (Conviction) but only 3 in Social (Presence).  

His skills in these are Conviction (5), Endurance (4), and Presence (1).  

Can you explain (preferably in little words) how the skills match up to the Stress Tracks?

Well, I'm a little confused by the Conviction, but in SotC I think you get +1 boxes for Average-Fair, +2 boxes for Good-Great, +3 boxes for Superb or higher.  Which would result in 5 Mental boxes, so perhaps the accounting is a bit more strict for DF (or maybe that's why he gets an extra mental consequence, but I was assuming that came from the +0 "Wizard's Constitution" stunt).

[iago]

Conviction ties to mental stress, Presence to social, Endurance to physical.

Base length of each track is 2.

1-2 points in a skill gives you 3 boxes instead of 2.
3-4 points gives you 4.
5+ points gives you an extra mild consequence slot of that type only on top of your 4 stress boxes.

[traeki]

As I understand the incarnation in DFRPG, you are taken out if your stress track fills. Taking Consequences reduces incoming stress. You may choose to allow a hit to take you out without taking any Consequences at all, or you may take them until you've taken your cap of three.

Point of clarification: In DF, are you taken out when your (two) stress boxes are filled, or when your two stress boxes are filled and you take another stress that you can't prevent with a consequence?

I had assumed the latter, but TheMouse seems to be indicating the former, and the difference is significant when we're talking about two boxes.  =)

[iago]

Point of clarification: In DF, are you taken out when your (two) stress boxes are filled, or when your two stress boxes are filled and you take another stress that you can't prevent with a consequence?

You are taken out when you are unable to take a hit on your stress track.

Consequences try to push the hit onto your stress track.

No available box (or hit still lands too high to land on the track at all), bam. Taken out.

[Rechan]

They last until the end of the next session after recovery starts

Holy crap. I thought that they lasted until you got something like, well, rest. They last an entire session? Even if say, there's downtime (like in the books, where there's the period Harry gets a bit of sleep and can eat a sandwich)?

This means you can only have like maybe three conflicts per adventure, or else you're going to kill your party.

[traeki]

5+ points gives you an extra mild consequence slot of that type only on top of your 4 stress boxes.

Aha!  Very cool, that has a nice flavor to it (kind of like getting a free stunt for taking a somewhat passive skill as one of your peak investments).

But what does Wizard's Constitution actually impact, then?  From a balance standpoint I should have guessed it wasn't where the consequence was coming from ("zero cost?  I'll take three!"), but it's not obvious what else a "constitution" stunt would impact.

[SoulCatcher78]

Conviction ties to mental stress, Presence to social, Endurance to physical.

Base length of each track is 2.

1-2 points in a skill gives you 3 boxes instead of 2.
3-4 points gives you 4.
5+ points gives you an extra mild consequence slot of that type only on top of your 4 stress boxes.

That makes sense now.  I was trying to figure that one out and I just kept scratching my head.  Having the additional mild consequence box allows the character to take even more of a beating (either mentally, physically, or social (HA, take that cripling shame)) which will come in handy if you're someone like Dresden who gets beat on regularly.  If the additional mild consequence doesn't have to be dedicated to the type of skill it came from that's even better.

[iago]

Aha!  Very cool, that has a nice flavor to it (kind of like getting a free stunt for taking a somewhat passive skill as one of your peak investments).

But what does Wizard's Constitution actually impact, then?  From a balance standpoint I should have guessed it wasn't where the consequence was coming from ("zero cost?  I'll take three!"), but it's not obvious what else a "constitution" stunt would impact.

Wizard's constitution means you can heal *slightly* faster than a normal person, you can heal over a very long time from some kinds of injuries that would be permanent for normal people, and you live real long. Mostly window-dressing, which is why it has no cost.

[SoulCatcher78]

Holy crap. I thought that they lasted until you got something like, well, rest. They last an entire session? Even if say, there's downtime (like in the books, where there's the period Harry gets a bit of sleep and can eat a sandwich)?

This means you can only have like maybe three conflicts per scenario, or else you're going to kill your party.

Given the examples (belly slash, 2nd degree burns, etc) the healing time frame seems reasonable.  If someone hits you with a fire attack and deals 4 stress you can avoid touching the stress track by taking a Moderate Consequence.  Your stress track is still wide open but now you take on "2nd degree burns" which can be exploited by an opponent grappling with you (that'd freaking hurt) but otherwise allows you to keep on moving through the scenario.   There might also be options for speeding up healing for Moderate and Mild Consequences so that you don't have to carry that all the way this session and the next.

[iago]

Holy crap. I thought that they lasted until you got something like, well, rest. They last an entire session? Even if say, there's downtime (like in the books, where there's the period Harry gets a bit of sleep and can eat a sandwich)?

This means you can only have like maybe three conflicts per adventure, or else you're going to kill your party.

You may be leaping to conclusions about what qualifies as recovery starting -- but I'll give you a mildly inaccurate yes to your last conclusion.  You've gotta pick your fights in the Dresdenverse, or you'll end up screwed.

[Rechan]

You've gotta pick your fights in the Dresdenverse, or you'll end up screwed.

I wasn't making that connection as a player, but as a GM. The GM has to know when to make those unavoidable or "hard to avoid" conflicts, or pepper his adventure with only a few.

After all, PCs might very well understand to be wary, but that also depends on the adventure. If the enemies are hellbent on fightin', or the only way to resolve things is going through the villain's face...

Compare this to the Novels. Using Dead Beat as an example:

(click to show/hide)

Battle with Corpsetaker. Battle with Cowl. Escaping Grevaine (and Corpsetaker). Torture session with Liverspots (I forget his name). Battle with Spirits/Zombies to get the Wardens. Final Showdown with Grevaine/Cowl.

Only the first was avoidable, and only that would've occurred had Harry slipped out the back instead of defending Bach.

[Bosh]

Also in most of the books, Dresden just barely crawls across the finish line with a nasty nasty set of consequences. In fact in some of the books is seems like he has that stunt in SotC that lets you delay being taken out by spending Fate points. The Dresdenverse is pretty hard on PCs so although the death rate is pretty low, the consequences get piled on pretty high and characters should end a lot of their adventures in the hospital.

[TheMouse]

Oh, of course. My point was that those consequences had mechanical effects, but not of the "apply this modifier every time you roll dice" variety.

We're on the same page. I just don't like using the word "penalty" with something Consequences, since we're talking about a hobby which has had flaws/ disadvantages/ death spirals/ whatever for a long time. It carries some weight that simply doesn't apply to Consequences, or at least not in a straight forward, transparent way.

[LCDarkwood]

This means you can only have like maybe three conflicts per adventure, or else you're going to kill your party.

No. This means that if you have a lot of consequences, you're going to be conceding a lot of fights. Stress clears out at the end of the scene, so you can usually keep yourself in a conflict with fate points and whatnot even if all your consequences are filled for at least a couple of exchanges. And if you concede before the roll that takes you out, you can dictate the terms of your defeat. So, in this sense, TPK is a pretty impossible outcome unless you're actively gunning for it... but it is possible that you might have a group that spends a certain amount of the story getting beaten back and suffering setbacks and complications as a result of engaging in conflict.

Which, of course, would make them precisely like this wizard PI that I know...


-L