Author Topic: Weirdo Guitar Question  (Read 5319 times)

Offline Umptyscope

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Weirdo Guitar Question
« on: December 13, 2009, 06:34:01 PM »
Hi all. First post.

So, I'm playing with an idea for my WIP, and need some opinions.

Let's say a character finds a guitar, and another character casts an "indestructability" spell on it. (Thinking of your basic hollow-bodied acoustic guitar, here.) The main character only knows that a spell has been cast on the guitar -- he (wrongly) assumes it's a spell to make him a better player, etc, but nope, just invulnerability.

The guitar is indestructable -- as it was when the spell was cast. Meaning, it's a little beat up, and slightly out of tune; it can never be less beat-up and will always be precisely as out of tune as it was when the spell was cast.

Questions:
--What would this be like as a weapon? I mean, I've seen a wrestler break a guitar over someone's head, but that's the point, it breaks. Beating up on someone with an unbreakable guitar would be like beating up on someone with a wiffleball bat -- you could hurt them, maybe knock them unconscious, but you couldn't possibly kill them, right? (Unless the guitar was launched at someone neck first, maybe...)

--As to the tuning, the main character would have to relearn how to make certain chords (to "work around" the out-of-tune strings.) On the one hand, it would make his guitar immediately unplayable to any trained guitar player who just picked it up, but on the other hand he'd have to remember the "right" way to make the chords in case he had to play a different guitar one evening. One: is that feasible? Two, do actual guitarists, upon picking up someone else's guitar, subtly pluck a few strings to see if it is in tune or not before playing? And how tough would it be for the main character to remember two different chord styles, or learn to play the "wrong" way? Would this make his music "different"?

What I get for writing a guitar playing character and not playing guitar myself. Interested in your guy's responses...--Umptyscope

Offline LizW65

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Re: Weirdo Guitar Question
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2009, 08:42:55 PM »
I think you could quite possibly kill someone with an (indestructible) guitar if wielded with sufficient force to the cranium.  The very fact that its indestructible would make it harder--it would be like hitting someone with a Louisville Slugger rather than a wiffle bat, IMO.  And yes, guitar players generally do check to see if an instrument is in tune before they start playing.  No idea about the rest of it, sorry.  FWIW, my work in progress also has a guitar-playing protagonist (and I'm a total non-player) but it's OK because he's really a rotten player. :)
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Offline Yeratel

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Re: Weirdo Guitar Question
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2009, 04:21:30 PM »
I'm flashing back to cartoon character Quick Draw McGraw's masked avenger "El Kabong", and his six-stringed weapon of choice, the "Kabonger". . .  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmemBa1HAzU
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Offline Shecky

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Re: Weirdo Guitar Question
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2009, 05:02:36 PM »
Queekstraw!
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Offline Starbeam

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Re: Weirdo Guitar Question
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2009, 05:35:39 PM »
--As to the tuning, the main character would have to relearn how to make certain chords (to "work around" the out-of-tune strings.) On the one hand, it would make his guitar immediately unplayable to any trained guitar player who just picked it up, but on the other hand he'd have to remember the "right" way to make the chords in case he had to play a different guitar one evening. One: is that feasible? Two, do actual guitarists, upon picking up someone else's guitar, subtly pluck a few strings to see if it is in tune or not before playing? And how tough would it be for the main character to remember two different chord styles, or learn to play the "wrong" way? Would this make his music "different"?

What I get for writing a guitar playing character and not playing guitar myself. Interested in your guy's responses...--Umptyscope
I can't give a fully detailed answer right now; I only had minimal guitar lessons over 15 years ago, but from what I do know about strings, it can be possible to play without being perfectly in tune.  The difficulty is that you can't do anything on an open string, especially the lowest string, because of the tuning.  Aside from the lowest string, there are workarounds, though I'll have to ask my b/f about guitar chords.  Plus from what he's told me, and what I've seen at concerts, most guitarists have at least two guitars, one tuned normally, one tuned differently--the one I've heard most often is drop d(couldn't tell you what that means).  My experience is that anytime a person picks up an instrument, the first thing they'll do is check the tuning, even if they were just using it and set it down a few minutes ago.  There are a lot of factors that can change it easily--especially heat/cold, moisture/dryness. 

As to learning to play differently, every instrument will have some variation that makes each one different to play.  The fingerings will be pretty much the same, the difference will be where exactly they go on the strings.

With the indestructable thing, that wouldn't necessarily make it out of tune, unless it makes the moveable parts immobile, which would be somewhat counterproductive because then the strings wouldn't be able to move and resonate.  And even if the moveable parts were rendered immobile but somehow left out the strings, then the strings would like stretch out over time.  At least that's what I'm guessing.
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Offline meg_evonne

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Re: Weirdo Guitar Question
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2009, 12:02:21 AM »
I'd take the steel guitar strings off it and you could choke someone or sever their head with enough force. This weapon has a name, but I can't recall the name at this moment.  It's a french name.  Technically it wouldn't need to be charmed to do it.   ;D
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Offline Umptyscope

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Re: Weirdo Guitar Question
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2009, 12:57:38 AM »
Meg_: A garotte. The thought had crossed my mind, though...

Starbeam: Hadn't thought about the strings issue. Hmm. So if the strings stretch over time and thus the guitar needs to be tuned, then, um, dern. I've just got a guy with a beat-up guitar (which could ricochet bullets or double as a toboggan, etc) but no "obvious" magic. Everyone'll just think he's a fan of Willie Nelson or something... :)

Thanks for the replies!

Offline AverageGuy

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Re: Weirdo Guitar Question
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2009, 04:07:53 PM »
--As to the tuning, the main character would have to relearn how to make certain chords (to "work around" the out-of-tune strings.)...One: is that feasible?
That really depends on how it's out of tune.  If a guitar's out of tune, it normally means in relation to the other strings.  Do you play an instrument?  It means one string will, when open (without a finger on it), be somewhere between E and F, or between C and C#.  The other strings will be out of tune in different ways-- one will be halfway between the notes, one will be 1% off one note.  Some of the top strings may be in tune; the bottom (thinner) strings normally stretch faster.  Frets are spaced to automatically give you a half-step up, so the same relative out-of-tuneness will be kept no matter where you play on the string.  Now, if it's a fretless guitar, or if he can remove the frets, he should be able to get around it just moving his fingers slightly, but he wouldn't need completely new fingering.  If it's only slightly out of tune, that would be close enough to standard fretting for him not to have problems when playing on a new guitar.

You can tune a guitar to something other than the standard 12-tone for a specific song, and if it's out of tune as in specifically set to that tuning to play an experimental or non-western song, he'll be able to play any song which uses that tuning, but he's not going to be able to play your average song with an odd tuning.  And it'll be just about impossible to play with anyone else without prior notice, and even then you're somewhat limited in your choice of instruments.
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Offline Sully

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Re: Weirdo Guitar Question
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2009, 07:50:48 AM »
tonewood(high grade wood used in instruments) is generally hardwood.  Maple, Spruce, etc.

It'll be plenty hard enough for a good club.

Does your indestructible spell allow for no physical change at all?

Because the note a string resonates at when open(IE, no fingers on it) depends on the tension of the string.  If it's a little loose, the note is a bit flat.  A little tight, a little sharp.  That's manipulated with the tuning pegs.

Would the strings be effected?  Would they be unbreakable, AND untuneable?  It isn't the same thing.  Elastic vs Plastic limits and such.

The bridge is typically not perpendicular to the strings, it's adjustable and at an angle to facilitate correct intonation.  Is that locked in place?



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Offline Umptyscope

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Re: Weirdo Guitar Question
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2009, 05:53:38 AM »
Wow! More responses! Cool!

I originally liked the idea of the character using the guitar to block sword thrusts, etc; but you've all raised good points. If it's indestructible, could the strings vibrate? If the strings vibrate, wouldn't they stretch? Etc.

The original idea was that the character was hired by a wizard to transport a magical item from Point A to Point B. The wizard cast the spell on the guitar to throw off any bad guy mages pursuing the character--if they did a "detect magic" kind of spell they'd think it was about the guitar.

The MC doesn't know this, though; he just thinks he was given a magical guitar, and he's genre-savvy enough to think it wil give him amazing musical abilities, etc. Nope. Just indestructable. And, since the guitar was out of tune when the spell was cast, the idea was that it would always be the same value of "out of tune" -- a couple of the notes off by, say, a note and a half. Hence new fingering, etc.

I guess I could weasel and say that instead of "indestructable" that the guitar "returns to it's previous state" the next day; but then, so much for parrying a mace. Hmmm. Maybe he just gets tired of retightening the same 2 strings and decides to "learn to play it wrong", or the spell was to make the guitar unbreakable, and not the strings or pegs, or, or, or...

Hmmm.

Offline AverageGuy

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Re: Weirdo Guitar Question
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2009, 02:12:46 AM »
a couple of the notes off by, say, a note and a half. Hence new fingering, etc.
Well, if it's like that, a couple notes off by a full minor/Major 2nd-3rd, you could get away with new fingerings...  Me, I'd be lazy and mute the strings, but you could make it work.  You'd probably play a different note in a chord because otherwise you'd have to stretch for quite a few notes, leading to a pretty awkward if not impossible hand position.  Well, maybe not if the notes were tuned up instead of down, but the notes would probably be tuned down-- you loosen the strings to tune them down, tighten to tune up, but if they were tightened too much before the spell there's a good chance they would've just snapped.  The guitar'd probably've been tuned that way on purpose.  Also, if it was that off, those strings'd feel a little different from the others either way.
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Offline Piotr1600

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Re: Weirdo Guitar Question
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2009, 05:31:25 AM »
So, how about this:
The guitar body/neck/strings, bridge are in fact utterly indestruct-o.
Buuuut... The cheap tuners, crappy bridge, and only barely acceptable fret job are just indestructible versions - they're perpetually allowing the guitar to go out of tune, or the string to buzz horribly on certain frets, and with a bad bridge, you know the intonation is gonna suck.
 
MC tunes, plays a couple of chords, and the tuning slips, retunes, plays some more, retunes

It's like the worlds most aggravating instrument, which ought to be good for some kind of entertainment... For the readers, at the expense of the MC...



BTW - I'm pretty sure I owned this actual guitar at one point in my life... <LOL>
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Offline Starbeam

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Re: Weirdo Guitar Question
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2009, 01:37:09 PM »
So, how about this:
The guitar body/neck/strings, bridge are in fact utterly indestruct-o.
Buuuut... The cheap tuners, crappy bridge, and only barely acceptable fret job are just indestructible versions - they're perpetually allowing the guitar to go out of tune, or the string to buzz horribly on certain frets, and with a bad bridge, you know the intonation is gonna suck.
 
MC tunes, plays a couple of chords, and the tuning slips, retunes, plays some more, retunes

It's like the worlds most aggravating instrument, which ought to be good for some kind of entertainment... For the readers, at the expense of the MC...



BTW - I'm pretty sure I owned this actual guitar at one point in my life... <LOL>
If things slip that much, you'll get quite a bit of frustration out of the character.  My violin had a string that would always slip and go out of tune, sometimes just after tuning it.  Now if it happens during a song, that can be really annoying.  Can't always stop just to retune, and that would give need for knowing how to move his hands around to still be able to play and not sound horrible.
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Offline Sully

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Re: Weirdo Guitar Question
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2009, 08:26:05 PM »
If things slip that much, you'll get quite a bit of frustration out of the character.  My violin had a string that would always slip and go out of tune, sometimes just after tuning it.  Now if it happens during a song, that can be really annoying.  Can't always stop just to retune, and that would give need for knowing how to move his hands around to still be able to play and not sound horrible.

Get your pegs fitted again.

If you want to make it simple, but aggravating, have everything in a fixed state.

But have it tuned with scordatura.   ;D   


Alternative/Cross tuning.  I'm not sure what the common variants are for guitar.  But for violin, which is typically tuned G/D/A/E, bottom to top, it isn't uncommon in some folk music traditions to raise the bottom two strings a note, ending up tuned at A/E/A/E.  To give it a bit more resonance, and to make the fingerings symmetrical whether you're playing high or low.  Or if a song is in D major, you might lower the top string a note, from an E to a D, to allow a constant D drone to be played easily and continuously.

Of course, if you're used to a particular tuning, you naturally finger each note for that particular tuning.  Change the tuning, and your fingers will get all messed up! 

Sometimes, the composer is trying to screw up your fingers.  For example, in the 6th cello suite by Bach, the top string(an A) is tuned down(to a G), because the chords are practically unplayable with the standard tuning.  But using an alternate tuning, it is playable, and sounds good.


Or, if you want to save yourself the trouble of having to understand and explain scordatura to a musically illiterate audience, just tune to a different baseline.

Generally speaking, in modern times, we tune to an A(Band people, shut up ;) ).  This A is defined to be the sound wave of 440 wavelengths per second.

However, historically, that A has ranged from 415 to 460.  That's quite a difference, when half a wavelength/second is easily detectable by professional musicians!  It's varied by region and ensemble as well.  Eastern Europe tends to tune a bit sharper(higher) then Western Europe/US, for instance.  So while the guitar might be perfectly in tune in Spain, it'll get more and more out of tune as the character makes their way to Turkey.

Continuing that theme, guitar isn't a standardized instrument at all.  So different regions will build them to slightly different proportions(sometimes largely different), play with different techniques(Flamenco vs flat-pick vs jazz, etc), so the instrument might be regarded differently from place to place as well.

Offline delphinerose

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Re: Weirdo Guitar Question
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2010, 05:59:23 PM »

  Starbeam is right. Generally a lot of guitar players have two guitars on hand already tuned. I know one who works this way. He has... Actually he uses a total of four guitars. Two are tuned to A. The other two to E. Nobody wants to tune and re-tune a la Bob Dylan circa '66.

   I love the idea you would want to use a guitar in your story, Umpty. If I could give a little suggestion, of course this being your story. I personally wouldn't make the whole guitar indestructible but give it some special powers that even the owner wouldn't know about. A spell in which cast, but the main thing would be to figure out what exactly is so magical about the thing. It could be a string, a fret, or something as little as the knob. Then get yourself a guide about guitars so maybe the hero can take it apart and wonder which part of it is magical. An electric guitar would be best because it's solid body if you really want to smash somebody or something with it.

   The two wrestlers who would use a guitar to smash over their opponents heads would be The Honky Tonk Man and later on Jeff Jarrett.

    delphinerose