Writing from a different gender perspective

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

I'm most curious as to what Harriet thought of her husband's female characters, given all the great things I've heard about her.

So far as I know, she was his first and most intense beta-reader, so I can but presume they had her approval; precisely what he was actually trying to do with them remains opaque to me.

[Aludra]

Jim writes women well in all his books.  Murphy, Charity, Molly... All feminine, all complete characters with their own strengths and weaknesses.

Male author who writes women VERY poorly?  Robert Jordan.  Snivelling, sniffing, bitchy, snotty, conniving, whiny, and horrible.  There isn't a woman in the entire series (or at least as far as I read, which was the first four or maybe five, I think) I could either identify with, or could ever imagine wanting to know.  I'd smack them all senseless.  Hated the lot of them, and the female characterizations are one of the biggest reasons I stopped reading the books.  I can only conclude that Robert Jordan has never met a strong, competent, kind, loving woman in his entire life.  They're all mean and sly and hateful, judging by the women in his books.

Hmm..  You're a better person than I am clearly, because I identified with the snivelling, the sniffing, the snotty, (I've got allergies, you know), the bitchy (Oh, I can be a mean bitch, but I'm subtle), the conniving (ahem, sex as a method for behavior alteration, I does it), whiny (my tantrums are grade A) and the horrible.  I am also a myriad of good things as well.  I think that if you can relate to Alanis Morsiette's "I'm a bitch, I'm a lover" song, then you should be able to relate to Jordan's females. 

[Shecky]

There's a part of me that wonders whether Jordan was making a comment on the common position in our quasi-patriarchal society that "men are all the same" by making the WOMEN largely the same in his world's society (which happens to lean closer to the matriarchal than does ours)...

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

There's a part of me that wonders whether Jordan was making a comment on the common position in our quasi-patriarchal society that "men are all the same" by making the WOMEN largely the same in his world's society (which happens to lean closer to the matriarchal than does ours)...

Could be.

I wouldn't presume to speak for either of them or claim to know them at all well, but they did come across as both being old-fashioned Southerners of a context where gnder distinctions are more fundamental than they are in my worldview.

[Shecky]

Could be.

I wouldn't presume to speak for either of them or claim to know them at all well, but they did come across as both being old-fashioned Southerners of a context where gnder distinctions are more fundamental than they are in my worldview.

That's the impression I've been gathering. To be honest, Jordan reminds me a bit of the accounts of Heinlein: old-fashioned gentleman kind of person.

[Darwinist]

Receptionist: How do you write women so well?
Melvin Udall: I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability.

[Kris_W]

There's a lot of things that make a character multi dimensional. I suspect the best way to make great women characters is to make great characters who happen to be women.

Yeah, right - like it's just that easy.
*sigh*

[Kali]

Hmm..  You're a better person than I am clearly, because I identified with the snivelling, the sniffing, the snotty, (I've got allergies, you know), the bitchy (Oh, I can be a mean bitch, but I'm subtle), the conniving (ahem, sex as a method for behavior alteration, I does it), whiny (my tantrums are grade A) and the horrible.  I am also a myriad of good things as well.  I think that if you can relate to Alanis Morsiette's "I'm a bitch, I'm a lover" song, then you should be able to relate to Jordan's females. 

"Can be" those things is one thing.  "Always are" is another.  If you are always those things and never anything positive, then yes, I'm a better person than you are.  And I wouldn't want to know you any more than I would ever want to know any of Robert Jordan's female characters.

[Aludra]

"Can be" those things is one thing.  "Always are" is another.  If you are always those things and never anything positive, then yes, I'm a better person than you are.  And I wouldn't want to know you any more than I would ever want to know any of Robert Jordan's female characters.

My philosphy is that everyone is good.  And everyone is bad. At the same time.  Yin, yang and all that.
So yeah I always have the option to be conniving, whiny w/e, and I always have the option to rise above it, and when I can do both at the same time, I go for it.

And I'm sorry you feel that they are always those things.  They aren't. You may want to try it again with an open mind.  Morgaine is wise and powerful.  Nynaeve is smart and brave.  Egwene is strong, inquisitive, and accepting of others. Morgase (when not brain-washed) is dignified and self-sacrificing. Just as a few examples.  I can pull out my texts when I get home and illustrate more for you if you like.  I hate to see people decide they hate a book for something that just isn't true.  If you say you dislike WoT b/c of the pace or the setting or the writing, then fine.  But b/c you think the characters don't have good qualities and only have bad qualities, when it is just not so is another thing.

[Kali]

I doubt I could be induced to pick up those books again if paid, honestly.  I picked them up because a friend of mine says it's one of his favorite fantasy series, and I just couldn't get past the portrayal of women.  We had a different experience reading them, and that's fine.   But I'm also far from the only person to say that his women are horrible examples of women, and that the portrayals are so negative that Jordan comes off downright misogynistic.

I get what it's like to try to defend a beloved series, tho.  My favorite series has a rapist as its main character and I'm forever defending him, what happened, and the series.  Stay strong! 

[Aludra]

I doubt I could be induced to pick up those books again if paid, honestly.  I picked them up because a friend of mine says it's one of his favorite fantasy series, and I just couldn't get past the portrayal of women.  We had a different experience reading them, and that's fine.   But I'm also far from the only person to say that his women are horrible examples of women, and that the portrayals are so negative that Jordan comes off downright misogynistic.

I get what it's like to try to defend a beloved series, tho.  My favorite series has a rapist as its main character and I'm forever defending him, what happened, and the series.  Stay strong! 

Yeah it just sucks to be the only one of my group of friends with the ounce of patience it takes to sit through descriptions like those in WoT and LOTR.  *sigh*  And the one friend who could sit through them.. She won't read a book that doesn't have a vampire in it.  Talk about books with poor characters.. Vamp romances. Eep.

[DragonFire]

My philosphy is that everyone is good.  And everyone is bad. At the same time.  Yin, yang and all that.
So yeah I always have the option to be conniving, whiny w/e, and I always have the option to rise above it, and when I can do both at the same time, I go for it.

And I'm sorry you feel that they are always those things.  They aren't. You may want to try it again with an open mind.  Morgaine is wise and powerful.  Nynaeve is smart and brave.  Egwene is strong, inquisitive, and accepting of others. Morgase (when not brain-washed) is dignified and self-sacrificing. Just as a few examples.  I can pull out my texts when I get home and illustrate more for you if you like.  I hate to see people decide they hate a book for something that just isn't true.  If you say you dislike WoT b/c of the pace or the setting or the writing, then fine.  But b/c you think the characters don't have good qualities and only have bad qualities, when it is just not so is another thing.

The problem with all those characters, and the women in general in those books, is the ultra massive sense  of entitlement they carry around, and the fact they consider men to be beneath them.

Jordan claims he was aiming to write 'strong' women, and a culture that had it's gender revolution so long ago that it's not longer even relevant...but I think he was wide of the mark in both cases.

Egwene is all the things you mentioned...but she's also stuck up, and borderline misandrist.

There are multiple examples, but the biggest one I can see is that almost all the female channelers, at some point, use their power to impress upon someone (usually a man) that they are stronger.
That's abuse, right there....

I don't consider them strong women....I consider them sad stereotypes.

[Gritti]

I hope someday loads of people argue so adamantly about my work.  The fact that this discussion is so heated is a testament to his success...I envy RJ...and Mr. Butcher of course...

[DragonFire]

I hope someday loads of people argue so adamantly about my work.  The fact that this discussion is so heated is a testament to his success...I envy RJ...and Mr. Butcher of course...

THis discussion is heated?

[Gritti]

It seemed to be before you entered it.  I just mean about the Robert Jordan women thing.  You know fan vs. antifan....nevermind.