Author Topic: Hero of their own stories in popular media  (Read 5812 times)

Offline ltgalloway

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Hero of their own stories in popular media
« on: August 02, 2009, 03:20:20 AM »
Hello,

This could have gone under Media, but it relates more to story and character than anything else.

I was wondering if anyone knew of some other examples (specifically in literature but film too) where the story is told primarily from the perspective of the antagonist. Everyone is the hero of their own story but I really like how this type of story telling can add some perspective to the motivations for villains. Not so much a redemption story, but what drives the character to commit evil acts.

Some that come to mind are:
Novels
Grendel by John Gardner

Films
The Assasination of Richard Nixon starring Sean Penn
Falling Down starring Micahel Douglas


Offline Cooper

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Re: Hero of their own stories in popular media
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2009, 02:57:55 PM »
On top of my head, The Catcher in The Rye by J.D. Salinger
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Offline LizW65

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Re: Hero of their own stories in popular media
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2009, 02:02:54 PM »
Titus Groan and Gormenghast by Mervyn Peake spend at least equal time inside the head of the antagonist, Steerpike.

Several classic noir mystery novels such as The Postman Always Rings Twice are told from the perspective of what would be considered the villain in a more traditional mystery -- often a hard-luck guy who is driven to murder by his own personality flaws or the machinations of a glamourous femme fatale.

Patricia Highsmith's Ripley novels feature an amoral sociopathic killer as the protagonist.  More recently the Dexter series of novels and TV program are told from the POV of a serial killer.

And while I haven't read it, I believe Mists of Avalon is told primarily from the viewpoint of Morgan Le Fay, usually the villainess in traditional Arthurian legend.
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Offline LizW65

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Re: Hero of their own stories in popular media
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2009, 03:03:13 PM »
Oh yeah, and the Parker books by Richard Stark (Donald E. Westlake.)  I just ordered the graphic novel of the first one off Amazon and it looks like it's gonna be great -- the whole thing is rendered in an early 1960's ad. art style by a guy named Darwin Cooke (never heard of him, but apparently he's quite big in comic book circles.)
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Offline Aludra

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Re: Hero of their own stories in popular media
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2009, 04:23:14 PM »
Yes the Mists of Avalon is from the viewpoint of Morgan Le Fay called Morgaine, and also of Vivianne and Gwenwhyfar who are equally cast as villainess and heroine.  It's actually a good read if you don't mind the intimidation factor *cough*and time*cough*.

Perfume by Patrick Suskind is enormously creepy and in the viewpoint of the murderer.  I think they made a film based on the book, but I can't see how that would be effective in getting accross all the nastiness and the freakiness.

Wicked by Gregory Maguire is of course the villainess' perspective and is not bad. I enjoyed it, personally, but I don't recommend the sequels or bothering with the other fairy tales he worked with.
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Hero of their own stories in popular media
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2009, 04:26:42 PM »
Yes the Mists of Avalon is from the viewpoint of Morgan Le Fay called Morgaine, and also of Vivianne and Gwenwhyfar who are equally cast as villainess and heroine.  It's actually a good read if you don't mind the intimidation factor *cough*and time*cough*.

And the rotten writing, don't forget that.
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Offline Aludra

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Re: Hero of their own stories in popular media
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2009, 04:27:41 PM »
I don't judge, I just read :P
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Offline LizW65

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Re: Hero of their own stories in popular media
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2009, 05:36:27 PM »
On top of my head, The Catcher in The Rye by J.D. Salinger

Don't know as I'd consider Holden Caulfield to be a villain, or even an antagonist -- he struck me as really just a whiny, spoiled brat who can't get his act together.
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Hero of their own stories in popular media
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2009, 05:43:30 PM »
I don't judge, I just read :P

Judging what's bad and what's good with the objective of being able to do better seems to me the essence of what an Author Craft space on the forum is for, no ?
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Offline Starbeam

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Re: Hero of their own stories in popular media
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2009, 05:44:58 PM »
Don't know as I'd consider Holden Caulfield to be a villain, or even an antagonist -- he struck me as really just a whiny, spoiled brat who can't get his act together.

Heh...that's more than I remember.  All I know is that I read the book and really didn't care for it, don't remember much else other than that.  Except maybe possibly for some sorta scene in a strip club?
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Hero of their own stories in popular media
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2009, 05:45:31 PM »
Don't know as I'd consider Holden Caulfield to be a villain, or even an antagonist -- he struck me as really just a whiny, spoiled brat who can't get his act together.

There are much much better "growing up dysfunctional" novels out there if that's your thing, some of which do much better at the antihero-protagonist.  (A Clockwork Orange. The Wasp Factory. Jack Womack's Random Acts of Senseless Violence.)
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Hero of their own stories in popular media
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2009, 05:46:13 PM »
Heh...that's more than I remember.  All I know is that I read the book and really didn't care for it, don't remember much else other than that.  Except maybe possibly for some sorta scene in a strip club?

I don't recall that, but it's been a while (and I can't possibly be confusing it with the scene in The Graduate.) He whines about Olivier's Hamlet, which is actually brilliant.
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Offline meg_evonne

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Re: Hero of their own stories in popular media
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2009, 06:36:16 PM »
Judging what's bad and what's good with the objective of being able to do better seems to me the essence of what an Author Craft space on the forum is for, no ?

I'm embarrassed that I can't remember the name of the wonderful older author who served on several panel discussions at MileHi40, but she's won all the major awards several times over.  I promise to go through my material to refresh my memory.  She's also a fixture at Clarion, I believe.  And now you know that my mind is not capable of holding information...  CRS and all that.

Her strongest advice was to read the bad books and the bad movies.  If you can figure out where they went wrong--then you are well on your way to being a good writer! 

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Offline Aludra

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Re: Hero of their own stories in popular media
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2009, 08:10:17 PM »
Judging what's bad and what's good with the objective of being able to do better seems to me the essence of what an Author Craft space on the forum is for, no ?
yes - ish?  Analysis does not implicitly require a judgmental attitude.

I mean when you, neurovore, refer to 'writing' what are you really referring to? There are so many aspects of writing: character development, plot development, pacing, literary devices, voice(s), etc.
And it's a taste thing, to boot.
I haven't read Mists recently enough to say if Bradley did a good job with all of those categories or not.  But I enjoyed the method of presenting the story, even if I didn't love the pace.  She did a good job developing most of the characters, but left some woefully in the Mists so to speak.  But those characters (Merlin, Arthur, Lancelot) are the ones that everyone already writes about so it was intentional.  You have to be a little more specific than "rotten writing" if you want to get me talking about a piece.
But no, I'm not going to categorize people's work as "bad" or "good" or "rotten" because there is bad and good in every piece, and it's an individual's tolerance for each thing that determines wether or not they like someone's writing.
So sorry, but I just disagree that judging is something you 'should' do in Author Craft.  You can, surely, but 'should', nah.  I prefer discussion to blatant dissing on people's work, personally.
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Offline Quantus

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Re: Hero of their own stories in popular media
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2009, 08:23:59 PM »
yes - ish?  Analysis does not implicitly require a judgmental attitude.

I mean when you, neurovore, refer to 'writing' what are you really referring to? There are so many aspects of writing: character development, plot development, pacing, literary devices, voice(s), etc.
And it's a taste thing, to boot.
I haven't read Mists recently enough to say if Bradley did a good job with all of those categories or not.  But I enjoyed the method of presenting the story, even if I didn't love the pace.  She did a good job developing most of the characters, but left some woefully in the Mists so to speak.  But those characters (Merlin, Arthur, Lancelot) are the ones that everyone already writes about so it was intentional.  You have to be a little more specific than "rotten writing" if you want to get me talking about a piece.
But no, I'm not going to categorize people's work as "bad" or "good" or "rotten" because there is bad and good in every piece, and it's an individual's tolerance for each thing that determines wether or not they like someone's writing.
So sorry, but I just disagree that judging is something you 'should' do in Author Craft.  You can, surely, but 'should', nah.  I prefer discussion to blatant dissing on people's work, personally.
I have to agree.  Blanket Judging (good, bad, rotten, etc) is what the Media Favorites board is for.  Author Craft needs more specific detail about one thinks its bad, especially as how such relates to whatever the topic at hand is.

As far as antagonist Stories, offhand i can think of mostly tv and film: 

-Darkness is a comic book series (related to Witchblade) that from the POV of a guy who is a supernatural force of evil working for the NY mob as a hitman.
-Payback is a decent Mel Gibson movie about a pretty evil dude looking to get some stolen money back. 
-As mentioned before the Dexter Series (books go venture in the supernatural, tv series stays more psychological)
-The Number 23 with Jim Carey
-Fight Club (sorta)
-Some parts of Sin City

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