Latin Translations

[Suilan]

Uilos, I've just noticed: in your second post you say "Shadow's Death" (= one shadow, so it's Mors Umbrae), but in your first post, you say Death of Shadows. So, if it's more than one, the correct translation is:

Mors Umbrarum = Death of (the) Shadows, or
Nex Umbrarum = (violent) Death of (the) Shadows, or
Umbrarum Nex = Shadows' (violent) Death

(word order is a stylistic choice)

Pluto, God of the Roman Underworld, was called: Umbrarum Rex (King of Shadows/dead spirits), so Umbrarum Nex would be a bit of a world play.

[novium]

My advice? Don't ever use a translation program or bilingual dictionary unless you know the language well enough to translate it yourself. That leads to things like "The wine was good, but the meat was spoiled" and "I marched comforter the risers" (the first via two-way bilingual-dictionary "translation" of "The spirit was willing, but the flesh was weak", the second of "I walked down the steps"). Translation programs stink, and bilingual dictionaries are SUPPORT tools; neither one should be a primary resource.

Thus the first part of my suggestion: buy a copy of wheelock. But anyway, I don't think it really matters for this sort of thing. We're hardly discussing embarking on a career as a translator. A) Latin is a fairly rare language and B) it's mostly used in fiction to make things look cool or come up with names, and so for that, I don't think a grasp of the language worthy of Cicero is necessary.

[Shecky]

Thus the first part of my suggestion: buy a copy of wheelock. But anyway, I don't think it really matters for this sort of thing. We're hardly discussing embarking on a career as a translator. A) Latin is a fairly rare language and B) it's mostly used in fiction to make things look cool or come up with names, and so for that, I don't think a grasp of the language worthy of Cicero is necessary.

Even that can come back in weird, unexpected and sometimes even embarrassing ways. When you want a translation, it's ALWAYS best to ask someone who speaks or at least writes both languages.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Thus the first part of my suggestion: buy a copy of wheelock. But anyway, I don't think it really matters for this sort of thing. We're hardly discussing embarking on a career as a translator. A) Latin is a fairly rare language and B) it's mostly used in fiction to make things look cool or come up with names, and so for that, I don't think a grasp of the language worthy of Cicero is necessary.

But if you get your Latin wrong, and I read it, I will think negatively of it, review the book negatively, and mention it if anyone asks me about it.

Whatever you do in fiction, take the time and effort to do right.  Unless you have an in-story reason for deliberately doing it wrong.

[novium]

I'm just saying: classicists and the classically educated are a rare breed. Even more rare are those fluent enough in Latin to notice anything short of a ridiculously obvious error without having to think about it. So, given the right context, I don't think a little dog latin is going to hurt anyone. Of course, if it's super-important to the plot or setting or in keeping with something previously established*, sure, translation is the way to go.

Plus, there's always the chance that if someone buys a copy of wheelock to try and hack their way through a translation, they will become hooked on Latin, become a billionaire, and donate a lot of money to Classics departments.



* e.g. if you're got a character who is supposed to be fluent in Latin who has just gotten seriously pissed and always swears in Latin, or is a Roman who magically pops up in the modern world or something along those lines....

[Starbeam]

Except that being able to read Latin and translate it into English doesn't mean you'll be able to translate English into Latin and get it correct, so it doesn't matter how much or how many books you buy and learn from.  And as far as I could tell looking at the description of Wheelock, it was the same as every translation I've done for Latin classes.  Latin to English.

[Shecky]

Except that being able to read Latin and translate it into English doesn't mean you'll be able to translate English into Latin and get it correct, so it doesn't matter how much or how many books you buy and learn from. 

Yet even that is more likely to be accurate and appropriate than a machine translation. A moderately skilled person, when it comes to language, is a far better bet than software.

Example from real life: Guy I knew when I was living in Paris had taken a semester of college French and was gamely trying to describe the high point in his life, when he first met the twin sister who had been adopted away shortly after birth. They ran up to each other, hugged and kissed each other on the cheek. He had been preparing for the story for a while, using a couple of lower-tier bilingual dictionaries (yes, it was that far back; think of them as translation software before Modern Man) that didn't give much context and only gave a list of possible equivalents of each entry. He tried to put into French the sentence, "I rejoiced when I kissed my sister." Because of... oddities in French and because of sheer bad luck in his choice of which option to use, what he DID say came out as equivalent to "I came when I f***ed my sister."

Translation programs STILL don't have a handle on context, which is what tells you precisely HOW to translate each word and phrase. They're okay for comprehending a translation INTO your native language, because assembling the context can give you enough of a picture to make a more informed choice in which option to select. But for translating OUT of your native language and into a language that you are utterly unfamiliar with beyond "Where is the train?" and "Where is the bathroom?", they can't even do this.

[Starbeam]

Oh, getting the direct translation between words is easy enough, but English grammar is so screwy to begin with, that I wouldn't even try to translate a sentence into Latin because I know I'd more than likely do it word for word.  Might be easier if I knew anything about grammar in other languages.

[Shecky]

That's just it - there is almost NEVER such a thing as "word-for-word translation". There's practically never a one-to-one correspondence between an English word and a word in another language. That, not grammar, is why translation is best handled by an experienced human and not by software: most computers simply do not have the capacity for high-volume, fuzzy-logic pattern analysis so easily done by people.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

I'm just saying: classicists and the classically educated are a rare breed. Even more rare are those fluent enough in Latin to notice anything short of a ridiculously obvious error without having to think about it. So, given the right context, I don't think a little dog latin is going to hurt anyone. Of course, if it's super-important to the plot or setting or in keeping with something previously established*, sure, translation is the way to go.

Any error you can avoid making, you should avoid making. It's part of taking writing seriously.

[Suilan]

I do wonder how much mail Jim Butcher received from people telling him that there are four mistakes in "Die Lied der Erlking."   I admit to some negative feelings when I first read the book, like Oh, please! If you make your bad guys German, could you at least bother to get those four words right? Takes a minute to ask someone on the internet to help you with it.

BUT Jim did recover very elegantly by having Harry laugh at the author of "Die Lied der Erlking" in Turn Coat and tell him he got the title wrong and wasn't that embarrassing for a book that's been in print for a century. That really made me chuckle.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

BUT Jim did recover very elegantly by having Harry laugh at the author of "Die Lied der Erlking" in Turn Coat and tell him he got the title wrong and wasn't that embarrassing for a book that's been in print for a century. That really made me chuckle.

Unless Jim says otherwise, though, I am prepared to believe he did that deliberately.

[novium]

Except that being able to read Latin and translate it into English doesn't mean you'll be able to translate English into Latin and get it correct, so it doesn't matter how much or how many books you buy and learn from.  And as far as I could tell looking at the description of Wheelock, it was the same as every translation I've done for Latin classes.  Latin to English.

Wheelock's a textbook. a lot of the exercises require going from english into latin, IIRC. I also have a hard time imagining that one could be well versed enough in latin to translated it into english but not vice versa. Sure, you might not be as practiced at it, but if you know the language well enough to successfully navigate declensions, moods, and voices, tenses, and all the rest I can't imagine you'd suddenly forget how. Maybe you wouldn't be skilled enough to write epic poetry, but a little latin here and there would hardly be beyond your grasp.

[novium]

Any error you can avoid making, you should avoid making. It's part of taking writing seriously.

Well, I think it might be a part of taking procrastinating seriously. I mean, it would be reasonable for an author setting a story in a city that haven't been in to read a bit about the city and take a look at it on google earth, but I don't expect them to spend hours exhaustively researching traffic patterns and local slang just to make sure that every last inconsequential (and that word is key here, for me) detail is correct. I just want them to tell a good story.

Now maybe this will ensure that I will be damned forever in the eyes of my Classicist brethren, but I still don't think a little dog latin is an unforgivable faux pas.

[Suilan]

Now maybe this will ensure that I will be damned forever in the eyes of my Classicist brethren, but I still don't think a little dog latin is an unforgivable faux pas.

Surely not unforgivable, just embarrassing. Using Latin in your novel is a bit like bragging, and if you do that, you might want to get it right. 

I am prepared to believe he did that deliberately.

Ah, but in my eyes, that would diminish the achievement. Anybody can make a mistake (and it's a very small one, as mistakes go), but it does show a great sense of humor to admit to it and use it for your story and make a wonderful joke about it. So I prefer to think it was a mistake.