Author Topic: Okay new game: hooked or not hooked.....  (Read 41190 times)

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Okay new game: hooked or not hooked.....
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2009, 07:02:49 PM »
A little busy with referents and alt-referents for my taste in an intro (I counted 8-9 maybe 10 attention points, some of which may warrant further tracking  for being different, quite a few are probably  throwaway distractions).     Hook lipped, not set.

Fair enough; my viewpoint character there is Hitler's nephew (a real person who had quite a bizarre life in our history, and who is sort of fascinating in a throughly venal but not competent enough to do anything about it sort of way.)  The actual point of divergence of this history is during the Irish Famine, which is somewhat less severe and occasions less emigration including several people who would otherwise have been significant in US history. The principal reason why this one is backburnered for the moment (apart from the gargantuan amounts of resarch reading that still needs doing) is that the particular creepy obscure right-wing real-world Catholic figure who was in this world going to be attached to the mystical wing of the Third Reich in the early 1960s and a significant player in the time period of the frame has since I put the story structure together been elected Pope and is no longer obscure, which kind of annoyingly shifts the balance of how it can be read  (in much the same way as the original 1999 publication of The Atrocity Archive using al-Qaeda as its "obscure real-world terrorist organisation most people will not have heard of in any detail" kind of did not work as such and was changed for the more recent Ace editions.)
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 07:08:18 PM by neurovore »
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Offline meg_evonne

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Re: Okay new game: hooked or not hooked.....
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2009, 07:56:01 PM »
Does it have to be an opening ?

Some stories want to open with hooks, and some with nets.
mine wasn't an opening.  I was editing a previous chapter before moving into writing the next (a great tip that someone here posted) and found a description of a minor character that fell in love with, so I posted it.  I did however do so conscious of the fact that it could have been an opener as well. 

So maybe we should clarify a bit, or better yet just be careful to pull out 250 that can stand strongly on their own.  Thoughts?
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Okay new game: hooked or not hooked.....
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2009, 08:02:24 PM »
So maybe we should clarify a bit, or better yet just be careful to pull out 250 that can stand strongly on their own.  Thoughts?

I don't know that giving a reasonable feel for the work needs something to stand on its own, exactly, but some context for each piece would be good.  (I mean, I think "It's a gendered-species thing. You wouldn't understand." catches the tone of the project of mine it belongs to rather well, but it's not really enough to convey what the story is doing.)
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline belial.1980

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Re: Okay new game: hooked or not hooked.....
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2009, 12:25:13 AM »
I personally would feel more comfortable with the 2nd sentence that introduces Rhea through the lantern, moves on to the body... continue to the last line and then incorporate the first sentence into that last bit. 


LOL. I'm the king of second guessing myself. When I first wrote the opening paragraph to this piece it went something like, "The light of Rhea's lantern revealed the creature sitting in the Cypress bower feasting on the eviscerated remnants of the young cowpuncher." Then for some reason I changed it. I dunno why...  ??? Oh well. You're totally right about the camera view. Thanks for putting me back on the right track! 
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Offline belial.1980

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Re: Okay new game: hooked or not hooked.....
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2009, 03:55:34 AM »
On the latest samples:

Lizwiz- You've constructed a really good hard boiled detective voice right off the bat, though my gut reaction is that it threatens to become derivative. The circumstances surrounding Jerry Straight's dissappearance tickle my curiosity though. Are they mysterious or unusual? If so, maybe you could try to work that in.

Starbeam- Hooked! I like the way you plunged the reader right into the mystery. We have no idea what's going on, but neither does the narrator and I'd definitely like to know what happens next. Nice!

Neurovore-
Hook lipped, not set.

I feel the same way. From what I see you've got a really intriguing story full of historical intrigue. The bit presented didn't quite grab me. However, since we're not limited to beginnings, why don't you post a blurb from his experience when "Jack Kennedy died?" I'd really like to see his viewpoint on that historical event. (Especially since I live in Dallas.)

The principal reason why this one is backburnered for the moment (apart from the gargantuan amounts of resarch reading that still needs doing) is that the particular creepy obscure right-wing real-world Catholic figure who was in this world going to be attached to the mystical wing of the Third Reich in the early 1960s and a significant player in the time period of the frame has since I put the story structure together been elected Pope and is no longer obscure, which kind of annoyingly shifts the balance of how it can be read

That's a tough one to tackle. The only thing that occurs to me is to suggest creating a simulacrum of the guy--someone that's close enough to suit the purposes of your story but doesn't constitute a historical representation. In any case, good luck with the story!
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Okay new game: hooked or not hooked.....
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2009, 04:30:52 AM »
Neurovore-
I feel the same way. From what I see you've got a really intriguing story full of historical intrigue. The bit presented didn't quite grab me. However, since we're not limited to beginnings, why don't you post a blurb from his experience when "Jack Kennedy died?" I'd really like to see his viewpoint on that historical event. (Especially since I live in Dallas.)

Jack Kennedy dies as a small kid during the Irish Civil War; the Kennedys never emigrated and old Joe is DeValera's right hand man in Dublin; nobody's going to come within miles of Dallas, it's basically an alternate WWII story with a frame of assassins in New York after our protagonist in 1963 while there's a Cuban Missile Crisis-equivalent going on about the Third Reich putting nukes in orbit. (I suspect that if this ever sells there will be a swastika strangling a shamrock or something similar on the cover.)
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

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Offline LizW65

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Re: Okay new game: hooked or not hooked.....
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2009, 01:58:14 PM »
On the latest samples:

<<Lizwiz- You've constructed a really good hard boiled detective voice right off the bat, though my gut reaction is that it threatens to become derivative. The circumstances surrounding Jerry Straight's dissappearance tickle my curiosity though. Are they mysterious or unusual? If so, maybe you could try to work that in.>>

Jerry's back by the end of chapter 3, and lots of complications ensue.  FYI, I've already completed the rough draft of this novel; I'm currently revising and hope to show it to some good impartial critics by the end of the summer.

<<Neurovore-
I feel the same way. From what I see you've got a really intriguing story full of historical intrigue. The bit presented didn't quite grab me. However, since we're not limited to beginnings, why don't you post a blurb from his experience when "Jack Kennedy died?" I'd really like to see his viewpoint on that historical event. (Especially since I live in Dallas.)>>

Re: Neurovore's piece, my guess was that it was a time-travel story in which the timeline had somehow got completely FUBARed by somebody's meddling in world events.  My bad! 
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Offline meg_evonne

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Re: Okay new game: hooked or not hooked.....
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2009, 12:07:38 AM »
Starbeam:  thumbs up on the bloody beginning   :D

Liz:  on jerry straight. (good name, as I forget names and I didn't this one!) I'm liking it, but I feel a bit distanced from it,.  It's definitely got that P.I. feel.  Looking forward to seeing more voice from your main character.  I did get a couple 'he's or him's' confused in the 2nd paragraph as to whom was being referrenced.

Neurovore:  Why does it not surprise me that your first posting of 250 is so deep seated into the character, in his distinctive rather rambling mind set, that I wanna tell him to hurry up and get to the point!  He's so real to life that he grated.  The premise is really intriguing from your posting that I would read on.  As this is the transition, would love to see the beginning of the main section.

And...changed my mind.  Maybe no preset info posted unless we put in spoilers.  Neurovore's is a good posting that shows that the explaination can spoil the fresh read later.   :(   I'm thinking it's better to do the 'in the cone' bit.  Post and hush until everyone has a chance to read it? 



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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Okay new game: hooked or not hooked.....
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2009, 12:32:42 AM »
Neurovore:  Why does it not surprise me that your first posting of 250 is so deep seated into the character, in his distinctive rather rambling mind set, that I wanna tell him to hurry up and get to the point!  He's so real to life that he grated. 

TBH, another reason why that project has so rarely come to the front of my attention is that that viewpoint is a completely miserable bastard to spend any time with in my head.

Quote
Neurovore's is a good posting that shows that the explaination can spoil the fresh read later.   :( 

We could put our contexting info in spoiler tags, perhaps ?
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline LizW65

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Re: Okay new game: hooked or not hooked.....
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2009, 02:30:20 PM »
OK, here's another selection from elsewhere in my manuscript:

     No doorman was on duty; the desk clerk put down his magazine and eyed me with a suspicion that vanished once I told him my name.  "Miss Malloy.  Mr. Russell's mentioned you.  Just go on up."  I staggered to the elevator, stabbed at the 'up' button, and at that moment the front door swung open again, revealing a mountainous figure clad in a vicuna overcoat.
     Son of a bitch.
     Ignoring the clerk's indignant query, he charged toward me across the lobby.
     Screw this, I thought, and pulling off my pumps I stuffed them into my shopping bag and ran like hell for the stairs.  Judging from the raised voices behind me, the clerk was doing his best to hold off Vicuna Man.  I hoped for his sake he had a shotgun, or at least a Louisville Slugger, hidden behind his desk.
     Russell's is a fourth floor corner apartment, a pretty decent place for the neighborhood; he picked it up cheap some years ago after a nasty murder was committed there and no-one else would go near the place.  Their loss.
     The stairs were slippery-wet, smeared with shoe dirt from hundreds of people, mingled with pools of what I really, really hoped was water.  Within seconds my feet were numb with cold and soaked through, my stockings ruined; but hey, I'd rather blow a buck-fifty on a new pair than face Vicuna Coat Man.  Up one, two flights, and I heard it:  the fire door being banged back on its hinges and heavy footfalls in pursuit.
     Clutching my parcels with one hand and the railing with the other I doubled my speed, taking the stairs two at a time and risking life and limb as I slipped and skidded on the worn slate.
     "Hey, little girl."  His voice echoed weirdly up the stairs.  "Come on down and play."
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Offline meg_evonne

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Re: Okay new game: hooked or not hooked.....
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2009, 03:44:13 PM »
Yeah Liz, that is really cool.  The mix of grubby human life with her sparky character just right.  Like the perfect amount of chocolate on ice cream.  :-)  I'm in the scene with your character completely.   Bare stockings in the moist stairwell, reminded me of my son-in-law's gross, very gross one when he was in college.  I was so glad when he moved in with my duaghter.  I couldn't take the smell.....

Which by the way reminds me...  lots of scent possibility here besides the sight and touch ones.  :-)   
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Offline RobJN

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Re: Okay new game: hooked or not hooked.....
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2009, 04:33:12 PM »
[Charles Barkley] "Hey guys, can I play, too?" [/Charles Barkley]
Quote from: Of True Names and Dreaming
“'Beth' is a normal name,” he said. “Don’t you like it? Would you rather be called ‘Elizabeth’ or ‘Lizzie’? I don’t know about ‘Lizzie’… it sounds like something green and scaly.”

Beth sighed, then flopped over on her back. “I would love to be an ‘Elizabeth’ or ‘Lisa’… I’d even settle for a green, scaly ‘Lizzie’ but thats not what I was named for.”

Jack thought for several moments, but couldn’t come up with any other amalgamations of names he’d ever heard that would yield up a shorter ‘Beth.’

“You won’t think of any others,” she said. “I told you, it isn’t normal.”

“Then why did you tell me to guess?”

She sat up, and her green eyes held Jack for a very long moment. “If you’d gotten it on the first or second guess, then I’d know that you weren’t normal,” she finally said.

“Great,” he muttered. “So I’m normal. What of it?”

She smiled. “Normal is good. I don’t get nearly enough of it.”

“You look normal to me,” Jack said. “Even if you do dress kind of funny.”

“This is all we have unpacked right now. The rest of my stuff is all boxed up and buried.”

They sat in silence, the girl staring at the sky, which was going from blue to deeper blue of late evening. The boy stared at the girl, the fine lines of her face starting to stand out in the deeper light of evening, the lashes drinking in the shadows, making her eyes seem wider, larger than they had in the afternoon.

“So if I’m never going to guess it, are you going to tell me?” Jack said, still turning names over in his head. Lizbeth, maybe. That was strange.

“They say that knowing something’s name gives you power over it,” she murmured.

“What kind of power?” Jack asked.

“I don’t know. Power. Like…” her voice trailed off as she thought. “Like.. When you’re in trouble and your mom calls you by your full name.”

Jack shuddered. “Yeah,” he said. “That's power, all right.”

I'd ask ya'll to be gentle... but will settle for only half-rotten tomatos being thrown my way ;)

Offline LizW65

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Re: Okay new game: hooked or not hooked.....
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2009, 07:46:10 PM »
@ Meg-Evonne:  Good thought; stairwells always smell of cat pee, don't they? ;D
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Offline meg_evonne

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Re: Okay new game: hooked or not hooked.....
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2009, 03:11:30 AM »
yeah, i wish it had been cat pee..  LOL
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Offline meg_evonne

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Re: Okay new game: hooked or not hooked.....
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2009, 07:38:04 PM »
Rob, Just realized that I forgot to swing back by this thread.  Sorry to be so slow.  Hopefully others will also chip in once we bring it back to the top of the line!

I like these two young people and their conversation on names.  They have a nice by-play going, and it brings up several great questions in the reader's mind.  Who is she?  How did they met?  How did they come to be together in the quiet of evening to discuss this. 

once the dialog gets going I appreciate that you are using actions to set the scene.  I've been told now by two authors, that I really respect, this little rule.  "Only use said, asked, whispered--nothing else."  They do not like qualifiers.  In your case, this happens frequently.  I think you need to trust your dialog and your character's voices more and it will keep the scene moving faster.

Uhm, how do I show that....  try reading this section aloud your way and the way that I've edited as these authors would have indicated...  Maybe it won't show anything!  But I'll try, please forgive me for taking a heavy hand to it.  You really, really can trust your dialog Rob--it's good!  Also you can trust the reader to keep who is speaking without footnotes--so to speak.  LOL

[Charles Barkley] "Hey guys, can I play, too?" [/Charles Barkley]
I'd ask ya'll to be gentle... but will settle for only half-rotten tomatos being thrown my way ;) 
  Ahh, gentle takes too long!!!  And I know you are a strong enough writer to be firm in your own preferences.   LOL


“'Beth' is a normal name.,” he said. “Don’t you like it? Would you rather be called ‘Elizabeth’ or ‘Lizzie’? I don’t know about ‘Lizzie’… it --sounds like something green and scaly.”

Beth sighed, then flopped over on her back. “I would love to be an ‘Elizabeth’ or ‘Lisa’… I’d even settle for a green, scaly ‘Lizzie’ but thats not *what* I was named for.”

Jack thought for several moments, but couldn’t come up with any other amalgamations of names he’d ever heard that would yield up a shorter ‘Beth.’

“You won’t think of any others, Jack.,” she said. “I told you, it isn’t normal.”

“Then why did you tell me to guess?”

She sat up, and her green eyes held Jack's for a very long moment. “If you’d gotten it on the first or second guess, then I’d know that you weren’t normal,” she finally said.

“Great.,” he muttered. “So I’m normal. What of it?” 

She smiled. “Normal is good. I don’t get nearly enough of it.”

“You look normal to me,” Jack said. “Even if you do dress kind of funny.”  (Might decide to describe her dress, but that would slow down the dialog flow)

This is all we have unpacked right now.** The rest of my stuff is all boxed up and buried.”

They sat in silence, the girl staring at the sky, which was going from blue to deeper blue of late evening. The boy stared at the girl, the fine lines of her face starting to stand out in the deeper light of evening, the lashes drinking in the shadows, making her eyes seem wider, larger than they had in the afternoon.

“So if I’m never going to guess it, are you going to tell me?” Jack said, still turning names over in his head. Lizbeth, maybe. That was strange.

“They say that knowing something’s name gives you power over it.,” she murmured.

“What kind of power?”

“I don’t know. Power. Like…” her voice trailed off. as she thought. “Like.. When you’re in trouble and your mom calls you by your full name.”

Jack shuddered. “Yeah, like when I broke Mom's favorite crystal vase.,” he said. “That's power, all right.”


RobJN's manuscript original copy has 343 words vs 296.  Does it seem sharper, crisper?  Less distraction from your great voices?  Also in this format you can easily see Jack's interested in her style of voice vs Beth's style of hesitation and slight sadness, which was hidden and harder to pick out of the flow.


*what*----best and neatest choice of words in this section that's going to drive me crazy until I get the answer---just what not who was she named for?   LOL

**This line has nothing to do with slowing down the dialog, but it raised all these questions, that are important, yet it makes me think about who 'we' and that pulls me out of being part of their relationship dialog.  So I wondered if you could include it elsewhere, once this tentative relationship is explained to the reader?  So it's sort of moving me out of where you want my mind to be at this point, I THINK... 

« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 07:48:01 PM by meg_evonne »
"Calypso was offerin' Odysseus immortality, darlin'. Penelope offered him endurin' love. I myself just wanted some company." John Henry (Doc) Holliday from "Doc" by Mary Dorla Russell
Photo from Avatar.com by the Domestic Goddess