just curious

[Danny-boy]

I looked for a thread covering this topic but couldn't find one - sorry if this is old hat

Everybody here seems to be real cavalier about posting unfinished work and/or story ideas and what have you...I think that is really cool, but, is there ever any concern about people's ideas being lifted? Is there just an unwritten rule that everybody is cool enough to follow? I am not super concerned, I just have what I think is a cool idea, would like to get some advice on it and am not sure exactly how all this works.

Also I was wondering...if you post something you have written...does that work kind of like what we used to call a "poor man's copyright" (Mailing something you have written to your own address, so it has a post-mark and therefore proves WHEN you wrote it) - I mean...since the forum keeps track of who posts and when?


I am not in any way questioning anyone's honesty...but...you know...it's the internet.


-Danny-boy

[AverageGuy]

(Mailing something you have written to your own address, so it has a post-mark and therefore proves WHEN you wrote it)

I've heard people say this before.  It doesn't necessarily work.  For one thing, it isn't backed up by the law so doesn't have any official recognition, for another, it's too easy to insert material into an envelope later.

Anyway, if you're worried, don't post anything.  Honestly, ideas are very rarely wholly original, so any similarities you'd see could easily be coincidence.  And even if someone did steal your idea, it wouldn't keep you from using it later; it's the body of work rather than the idea that counts as IP.  Besides, most people wouldn't bother stealing them.  Ideas are a dime a dozen, people tend to have their own already and won't need yours.  As for the work itself, I'm not sure if it's protected, I've heard DMCA automatically protects what you post but I'm not sure it's true; really, though, it's pretty unlikely anyone will steal it.

Again, if you're that worried, just don't do it.

[Cooper]

For the book I'm writing I have to be very careful of what to say on the Internet.  Some of the ideas are really sensitive, and I'm just totally afraid of somebody finding out about it and either ridicule me or rip it off and take the credit.  I keep all of my important notes in a black leather notebook (paper is safe) and use that as a reference.

[Danny-boy]

I've heard people say this before.  It doesn't necessarily work.  For one thing, it isn't backed up by the law so doesn't have any official recognition, for another, it's too easy to insert material into an envelope later.

Anyway, if you're worried, don't post anything.  Honestly, ideas are very rarely wholly original, so any similarities you'd see could easily be coincidence.  And even if someone did steal your idea, it wouldn't keep you from using it later; it's the body of work rather than the idea that counts as IP.  Besides, most people wouldn't bother stealing them.  Ideas are a dime a dozen, people tend to have their own already and won't need yours.  As for the work itself, I'm not sure if it's protected, I've heard DMCA automatically protects what you post but I'm not sure it's true; really, though, it's pretty unlikely anyone will steal it.

Again, if you're that worried, just don't do it.

yeah...I'm not really all that worried...I was just wondering what was what.

[Starbeam]

This post has an edit to take out what someone posted, with an explanation.  There's a mention of something about something that happened with Mercedes Lackey, but dunno what exactly it's referring to.  Although googling anything similar, it sounds like she has some very crazy fans.

Also, with copyright, there's another thread here somewhere that discusses that, and the validity of mailing a copy to yourself to get a copyright.  I also remember reading/seeing something somewhere that if you post a complete story on a website/forum/whatnot, that it can be considered some kind of publishable format, or works for first rights, or something like that, and some publishers/agents won't accept anything like that.  I don't know the specifics of that one.

[The Dread Pharaoh Roberts]

There's a mention of something about something that happened with Mercedes Lackey, but dunno what exactly it's referring to.  Although googling anything similar, it sounds like she has some very crazy fans.

Yes, luckily all of Jim's fans are perfectly sane and rational. 

[Supremacy]

 I can't claim to know the finer points of law. But personally, anytime I am involved in anything that has intellectual property rights attached (Weather it be graphical, website design, writing, etc., etc.). If I intend to claim any portion (if not all) of the rights attached to the product, I make a hard copy of my work/involvement on disk (both External and HDD), sometimes I even add copyright date and explanation of what that copyright encompasses.

 As far as ideas are concerned. If you're talking about a general idea like, "A group of Vampires attack a town, but one of the Vampires gets a conscience and fights back". There's not much for IP to attach to, because anyone might come up with that idea on their own. But if you had a product that went into detail of how the world worked, the characters involved, etc. like that. That might be a different story.

 Take for instance Never-Never-Land from Peter Pan. Just by the name alone someone might assume that the concept added to JB's inspiration (I'm not claiming it did or inferring anything, just making an example). However, it's completely obvious that JB's Never-Never is completely his own creation. And any ties that anyone might be able to find that resemble Never-Never-Land and the Never-Never would be extremely loose.

  And that is essentially what IP is. It protects you from your works/products being regurgitated. You can trademark certain things, etc. And if anyone is inspired by your work, they are allowed to be, but they can't use your base product. They can use the over-all concept, but they have to make every bit of their product as their own work and not tied to yours without permission.

  However, if you have an idea that you think is wholly unique, then your best bet is to keep it to yourself or people that have signed DNC agreements. If it's that important to you. But understand that once it is out to the public, people might be inspired by it. Which would be good for you (The whole point is to inspire and entertain, IMHO). What you gain by keeping it to yourself is being the first to use the idea and staking your claim in history as being the creator.

[Tribblechomper]

I've heard people say this before.  It doesn't necessarily work.  For one thing, it isn't backed up by the law so doesn't have any official recognition, for another, it's too easy to insert material into an envelope later.

But how does one fake the USPS-issued postmark, without a DeLorean and a flux capacitor??

Anyway, if you're worried, don't post anything.  Honestly, ideas are very rarely wholly original, so any similarities you'd see could easily be coincidence.  And even if someone did steal your idea, it wouldn't keep you from using it later; it's the body of work rather than the idea that counts as IP.  Besides, most people wouldn't bother stealing them.

Tell that to the family of the late Art Buchwald and ask his heirs about "Coming To America" with Eddie Murphy...

Quoting Wikipedia:
"Buchwald was also known for the Buchwald v. Paramount lawsuit, which he and partner Alain Bernheim filed against Paramount Pictures in 1988 in a controversy over the Eddie Murphy film Coming to America; Buchwald claimed Paramount had stolen his script treatment. He won, was awarded damages, and then accepted a settlement from Paramount. The case was the subject of a 1992 book, Fatal Subtraction: The Inside Story of Buchwald V. Paramount by Pierce O'Donnell and Dennis McDougal."

[Starbeam]

But how does one fake the USPS-issued postmark, without a DeLorean and a flux capacitor??

I think it's something like sending yourself an empty envelope, or whatnot, and then later on putting something in it.  I think this is the thread dealing with all that stuff.

[The Corvidian]

Usually, if I come up with an idea that might not seem wholly original, I also try to find two other uses of it.

[Danny-boy]

I think it's something like sending yourself an empty envelope, or whatnot, and then later on putting something in it.  I think this is the thread dealing with all that stuff.

See...I had always heard for it to work you had to send the material to yourself (just to get the postmark) and keep it sealed. Then if needed you could show the postmark and then open the envelope (in front of a lawer or judge or what have you) and show that you in fact wrote said material on or before the postmarked date.

[AverageGuy]

But how does one fake the USPS-issued postmark, without a DeLorean and a flux capacitor??

You don't.  You fake the seal.  You never seal it in the first place.  Or you seal it with a paperclip.  Or you carefully open the envelope and redo the glue.  All of which probably adds up to why there are no cases where someone's successfully won with this method.

Tell that to the family of the late Art Buchwald and ask his heirs about "Coming To America" with Eddie Murphy...

Quoting Wikipedia:
"Buchwald was also known for the Buchwald v. Paramount lawsuit, which he and partner Alain Bernheim filed against Paramount Pictures in 1988 in a controversy over the Eddie Murphy film Coming to America; Buchwald claimed Paramount had stolen his script treatment. He won, was awarded damages, and then accepted a settlement from Paramount. The case was the subject of a 1992 book, Fatal Subtraction: The Inside Story of Buchwald V. Paramount by Pierce O'Donnell and Dennis McDougal."

Just read the article on the case.  Paramount optioned a treatment, didn't pick up the option, and then made an ostensibly different movie using an outline remarkably similar to the treatment.  That's more than a story idea, that hits original work of authorship territory.

The line when it comes to ideas is somewhat fuzzy, but for example, one could potentially write a story about a wizard, a member of a wizard council which is at war with vampires, without necessarily infringing on JB's intellectual property.  Or a story about a wizard-PI.  Two authors can write completely different stories based on the same ideas.  That's why section 102b of the Copyright Act says, "In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea..."  Of course, there's protection once you get beyond the idea stage.  And depending on the sum of the work, how many other ideas in the work are similar, how many new ideas there are, how many other similarities there are between characters and situations, with the structure of the story, the second author could run into trouble.

[Tribblechomper]

...for example, one could potentially write a story about a wizard, a member of a wizard council which is at war with vampires, without necessarily infringing on JB's intellectual property.  Or a story about a wizard-PI.  Two authors can write completely different stories based on the same ideas. 

So, I can't write me a story about a Wizard PI (Postal Inspector), who sticks his nose into police cases, has a rabbit skull on his desk that is home to an enchanted methane cloud (the result of eating an Ensorcelled Burrito made with refried beans that were from Jack's Beanstalk), that gives him advice on matters mystic?

[Captain's Honor]

Um . . . I think that would a little too close to the original for comfort . . .

[Starbeam]

My reply got erased cause of the messup thing, but generally, that sort of story could be considered parody and be okay.  Sort of like Bored of the Rings.