Wild WAG Sunday

[morriswalters]

It was early days in Proven Guilty.  And until that point I don't think that Jim had shown Mab in that form. But I ain't married to the idea.  But if I was Mab I'd wear body armor going forward.

And of course Molly then becomes MAB later. So she killed herself, somehow, and later travels back in time. At which point early-Harry/Merlin will cast her out to become the cold Mab from the current still-human Molly.

Well it's your book when you read it, so if it works, it works.  This is the book I'm writing in my head since I won't live to see the BAT assuming that Jim actually gets there.

[Mira]

It was early days in Proven Guilty.  And until that point I don't think that Jim had shown Mab in that form. But I ain't married to the idea.  But if I was Mab I'd wear body armor going forward.Well it's your book when you read it, so if it works, it works.  This is the book I'm writing in my head since I won't live to see the BAT assuming that Jim actually gets there.

Perhaps in the next life we can compare notes?   Because I doubt that I will live to see the BAT as well..

[morriswalters]

Perhaps in the next life we can compare notes?   Because I doubt that I will live to see the BAT as well..

I don't want a next life, one was enough. I had high hopes until 6 years no books, but it is what it is.  I'll write my own BAT instead.

[Yuillegan]

Harry in Demonreach would know what's coming and what price he will pay and what his choices will cost him. Jim foreshadowed Molly's possible fall from grace and in the end I think she will backstab Mab for giving Lara what she can't have.  This possibility was foreshadowed when Harry soul gazed her.

This sounds a lot like Mab's judgement form.  Another of the other things he sees in the soul gaze is the Molly like this.

Which of course foreshadowed Ghost Story.

I think he's coming back to try and do at least three things, save the mortal who became Mab, save Molly and fill Demonreach in the final showdown in the Bat.

But Harry in Demonreach doesn't solve why Harry would put on a very credible British accent to fool his younger self. Until you can figure that one it's a fairly big hole in the idea.

Molly could backstab Mab...or Harry. A woman scorned and all that...

What's interesting about "dark" Molly is that she could represent any number of things. A warlock was most obvious at the time, but yes also a darker, more sinister Winter Queen. Perhaps what Mab was concerned about. The set-up that I can see is that Harry will have to kill Molly. He really doesn't want to, but just like with Susan, he will have to. It's about terrible choices. Molly is on a very dark road. Harry is partly responsible for that. The amount of times Jim has foreshadowed or mentioned that Dresden will have to kill Molly or Molly will go dark side or Molly should be stopped before she goes bad, is massive. I don't know that even Jim knows how exactly he will present this choice in the future but I am sure it's coming.

Often with time travel stories, in going back to try and change the past the character ends up setting in motion the very events they were trying to stop. The ontological paradox. I am not saying this is the case, but Vadderung made it very clear why it wasn't a good idea to try and change the past for any reason. Better to shape the future via action in the present.

I like how long the Molly=Mab idea has been going around. I think it was Ms. Duck who first started it years ago. Time will still tell on that one.

It was early days in Proven Guilty.  And until that point I don't think that Jim had shown Mab in that form. But I ain't married to the idea.  But if I was Mab I'd wear body armor going forward.

Well it's your book when you read it, so if it works, it works.  This is the book I'm writing in my head since I won't live to see the BAT assuming that Jim actually gets there.

I don't know why Mab hasn't been wearing armour all this time. Seems crazy to me.

I don't know your situation, but if you feel like you're getting close to the end I would encourage to to write to Jim and ask him about it. In the past, he has given people advance copies of the next book. Such as people with terminal illnesses etc. Perhaps he might tell you where it's all going. I hope you're doing okay though Morris.

I don't want a next life, one was enough. I had high hopes until 6 years no books, but it is what it is.  I'll write my own BAT instead.

Why not? It's your life. Might be fun to write your own BAT anyway. You might even prefer it to whatever Jim may end up writing.

[morriswalters]

But Harry in Demonreach doesn't solve why Harry would put on a very credible British accent to fool his younger self. Until you can figure that one it's a fairly big hole in the idea.

Often with time travel stories, in going back to try and change the past the character ends up setting in motion the very events they were trying to stop. The ontological paradox. I am not saying this is the case, but Vadderung made it very clear why it wasn't a good idea to try and change the past for any reason. Better to shape the future via action in the present.

Okay, why a British accent? Because it's an easy lie. EOS.

“I’ve never heard it phrased quite like that, but it’s accurate enough. In any event, overcoming that inertia requires tremendous energy, will, and a measure of simple luck. If one wishes to alter the course of history, it’s a far simpler matter to attempt to shape the future.”

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (pp. 214-215). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

This is what you're quoting and I think you are misreading it.  It's gibberish if taken straightforwardly. You can't change history by shaping the future.

Here's how you might do it for a story.  Who fixed LC? If Harry did it, how do you escape the paradox? Because someone in the future told you you needed to.  And it would be helpful if you changed the future by changing that person now. So if you changed Lasciel's shadow, you produce Bonea who can put the pieces together at the right time and send you back, to do everything you might need to do.  It's established that Lasciel knew everything, all of Harry's secrets. You shaped the future by changing her and she changes your past. This closes the loop.  Bonea knew because Lash broke Little Chicago. And she could sabotage LC because she could make Harry see exactly what she wanted him to see.  Like Sheila.

That's my solution to the bootstrap paradox. Dazzle them with footwork.

[groinkick]

Lara is Mab's daughter???  Lord Raith is like 2,000 years old.  She is his eldest living child, so in theory maybe she is old enough...  Also with their marriage that would make Mab Harry's mother in law...  I mean how could Jim pass up an opportunity like that?  Mother in law from hell?  Not quite but pretty darn close!

[groinkick]

Okay, why a British accent? Because it's an easy lie.

Here is my theory on this, and how Jim was able to fib on it while telling the truth.  I do believe that person is either King Arthur, or the original Merlin.  It's true their English would be way different.  However I believe the Island allows Harry to understand anything that Harry wants to communicate with.  There were all manner of things trying to whisper to him.  Chances are they have been there for so long, and don't even know English, and yet Harry understood them.

If the person was say German, or Chinese, I think Harry would understand them but hear their accent even if they were speaking there native language.  It's all tied to the Island, and that no words are actually being spoken at all.  It's a form of telepathy.  So they think it, the Island deciphers it, and Harry understands it.

[Yuillegan]

Okay, why a British accent? Because it's an easy lie. EOS.

This is what you're quoting and I think you are misreading it.  It's gibberish if taken straightforwardly. You can't change history by shaping the future.

Here's how you might do it for a story.  Who fixed LC? If Harry did it, how do you escape the paradox? Because someone in the future told you you needed to.  And it would be helpful if you changed the future by changing that person now. So if you changed Lasciel's shadow, you produce Bonea who can put the pieces together at the right time and send you back, to do everything you might need to do.  It's established that Lasciel knew everything, all of Harry's secrets. You shaped the future by changing her and she changes your past. This closes the loop.  Bonea knew because Lash broke Little Chicago. And she could sabotage LC because she could make Harry see exactly what she wanted him to see.  Like Sheila.

That's my solution to the bootstrap paradox. Dazzle them with footwork.

Is it? Seems like it would have been easier not to talk to Dresden, not to mention Dresden's not exactly a great actor at the best of times. If he had dramatically improved his lying, why not talk in another language? He also clearly had enough psychic power to throw Dresden's mind out, even from his cell. He didn't have to talk to Dresden at all. He didn't even WANT to talk to Dresden.

To be fair, all time travel explanations are mostly gibberish. It's only possible (as far as we know) at a quantum level. And not in any way that we could use to effect that sort of change. I am not stating you can change history by shaping the future, and I don't think Vadderung was either. That would literally be going to the future to change the past.

What I believe that quote is saying, and I could be wrong, is that if you wish to change what might be (the future) it's a lot simpler to change things in the present. This requires a few elements. You would have to know what the likely future is and be able to make reasonable predictions about it. You would also need to have the tools to be able to change the pivotal events that would lead to those future outcomes. Like diverting a great river with well placed rocks or newly dug trenches. Somewhat like what Mab said in Battle Ground to Harry...and she said there was always a cost. All of which assumes the future can be changed in the first first place...isn't destiny supposed to have a say? Yes, I believe Mab said destiny is a stone-cold bitch.

You're LC proposal is an interesting one. But still a time loop, unless I am much mistaken. Which is a sort-of paradox I think. But perhaps I have misunderstood it. Harry changes Lash, which causes Lash and Harry to have Bonea, which causes Bonea to eventually become the Archive who eventually tells Harry to go back and fix LC because he would die then otherwise...and he then comes back to his present. Yes? Plus whatever other fixes in the timeline were needed.

Here is my theory on this, and how Jim was able to fib on it while telling the truth.  I do believe that person is either King Arthur, or the original Merlin.  It's true their English would be way different.  However I believe the Island allows Harry to understand anything that Harry wants to communicate with.  There were all manner of things trying to whisper to him.  Chances are they have been there for so long, and don't even know English, and yet Harry understood them.

If the person was say German, or Chinese, I think Harry would understand them but hear their accent even if they were speaking there native language.  It's all tied to the Island, and that no words are actually being spoken at all.  It's a form of telepathy.  So they think it, the Island deciphers it, and Harry understands it.

Well I think you're right about the psychic translator. But I will add something. Almost every British character, or character/being with a British accent, is a villain in the series. Likely this is a leftover from a well-known trope. In point of fact, even some of the British characters that are not out-and-out villains...are still suspect.

So even if this person is Harry, or King Arthur, or whoever...they have a better than not chance of being a villain.

[morriswalters]

Jim picked time travel when he said that book 20 would be the time travel book. So like or don't like it, somebody is going to do it. 

There are only two ways to go.  You can go back or you can go ahead. If you go forward which future do you go to.  This is how we live, do your best and hope it all works out.  Or you can go back and set up the tools to help you make those decisions.

All I'm suggesting with Bonea is that she can be used to avoid the bootstrap paradox. How does Harry survive  so that he can go back to fix LC.  If LC was fixed without time travel then there is only two characters on the page who could have fixed it, and there is no mystery.

[Yuillegan]

Oh I like it, and I am sure he will do it. Not everyone feels the same of course. I was speaking more generally about time travel.

Well, we're all going ahead technically. Just one small amount of nanoseconds at a time, rather than big jumps of hours, days, months, years, decades etc.

I'll be interested to see what route Jim plans with the future. Is it one, pre-ordained timeline? Or is it multiple possible timelines, alternate universes? How do you even find them and select the right one?

Jim has compared it to bandwidth before. Do you turn a dial?

I think LC has to be a separate discussion. Too many issues with that problem alone, which I get the TT with Bonea is attempting to fix. But so far it's hard to see how they avoid the paradox...do you mind explaining it another way? My old brain isn't firing on all cylinders I think. Also, how does Dresden return after he goes back to fix LC? Where does he go from there?

[Snark Knight]

And of course Molly then becomes MAB later. So she killed herself, somehow, and later travels back in time. At which point early-Harry/Merlin will cast her out to become the cold Mab from the current still-human Molly.

Then how would Corb remember her as, apparently, a teenager? She's already twenty-something.

[morriswalters]

The bootstrap paradox is about how information moves from the present to the future.  If Harry dies on first use of LC how does he know to fix it so that he doesn't die.  This is a discontinuity. It's like drawing a circle with a gap.  How do you bridge the gap? Anybody can do it who has knowledge of both events.

1.  Lash breaks LC in order to convince Harry to pick up the coin.
2.  Harry doesn't die on first use.
3.  Lash knows that someone interfered, but not who.
4.  Lash is changed by Harry.
5.  In the future Bonea shares the info and they go back.

Being Merlin in the past is about putting in place all the tools that will be needed in the BAT.  It isn't about changing the past.  Harry has already done these things as Merlin.  The loop is once and done.  This is what he was born to do.  Bonea as Lash was a Fallen through all these events and knew of them.  She is the one who closes the  gap.  The events up until Harry reemerges from his cell have always happened.  Harry didn't die on first use or any of the other times he has faced death. Which is why Odin says,"Perhaps you already have.", when Harry asks if he can stop the attack on Demonreach. Odin doesn't know how, he only knows that he did.